The uses of adversity

[flemmings]

Yesterday I was hanging around on the work computer waiting for my shift to start and somehow followed tags and such back to this post of paleaswater's with the link to Tudou's Best of Uncle Ming in 江山风雨情. Ran it on work's XP Pro, and ohh how much faster it is than on Win98. Jerky, like stop animation, but not the pause for five seconds every three seconds I'm used to. Came home and for interest's sake tried it on aniki's Vista. Like the wind, I tell you. And so I got to watch as Uncle Ming quivers and gasps and meets a most beautiful and dramatic end. Pity the screen's so small, is all, which is the advantage of a low resolution.

Like the wind on a laptop means the subtitles go too fast, but at work they were quite readable. And, lord, what a difference ten days of plugging away at simplified hanzi (instead of playing Yukon solitaire) has made in my reading comprehension. Then I went and viewed some Woxin against the day when I have a wp program again, on the old compy or the new. (Am currently wondering what happened to the case and motherboard of my old system, because it's not down at BB. Wibble wibble again.) Had sudden satori in middle of Gou Jian's address to the ancestors. All those courtiers who preface their remarks with 'chen yiwei' are actually saying 臣以為, y/n? So when did 以為 start to mean 'believe wrongly'? which is the sense Gou Jian uses it in there. And not 'the minister humbly and mistakenly believes you shouldn't wage war on Wu'?

Comments

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

臣以為, yes; "the minister believes", but with a "but" built into it. As in, "[pronoun] 以為" is used when [pronoun] believes in something that contradicts currently established assumptions, facts, or statements.

Say for example I think that a book (書本) has gone missing (不見), but in actual fact it has not. I would say,

我以爲書本不見了。
(I believe the book has gone missing.)

In English, the statement gives no indication of whether the book has indeed gone missing. In Chinese, however, because of the phrase 以為, it is quite clear that I am mistaken; the book has not gone missing, I only think it has.

If, on the other hand, I use the phrase 認爲 (ren wei), which also means "believes, thinks", the sentence becomes a completely neutral statement of my own belief, with no indication of whether that belief is correct or not.

我認爲書本不見了。
(I believe the book has gone missing.)

So when Gou Jian says "勾踐以爲只有勾踐才能富國強兵；只有勾踐才能保全社稷之長存" it is implied that he is wrong. Whereas in English, this mistaken belief would be implied in past tense, if at all:

"Gou Jian believed that only Gou Jian could enrich the country and strengthen its army; only Gou Jian could ensure the continued existence of the state."

By convention, "Gou Jian believed" implies that this belief had been proved mistaken, but if one examines the statement closely it is not conclusive that this is so. Gou Jian believed something, and this something may be have been false, or it might have been true. With 以爲 there is no such ambiguity.

So when the ministers say 臣以為, they are always contradicting something the king had said previously.

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

Incidentally I had not known that 社稷 (she ji, the country/nation/state) originally referred to the god of the land and the god of grain. Apparently 社稷 were venerated by kings of old, and the phrase later came to refer to the country/nation/state. Interesting. zdic.net is awesome.

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

Oh wait, cross the last sentence. In modern usage, 臣以為 would indeed mean that the ministers are contradicting the king. In Woxin, IIRC, the ministers frequently use 以為 as a homonym for 認爲.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

我以爲書本不見了。
(I believe the book has gone missing.)

In English, the statement gives no indication of whether the book has indeed gone missing. In Chinese, however, because of the phrase 以為, it is quite clear that I am mistaken; the book has not gone missing, I only think it has.

But when would anyone ever say 'I believe something wrongly' in present tense, when you yourself don't know the actual facts? If I believe the book is missing, then for me the truth is that the book *is* missing.

In past it's simple enough- English 'I thought the book was missing' almost always implies a but as well-- 'But I was wrong. Whereas 'I thought the book was missing' implies 'and I was right.'

In Woxin, IIRC, the ministers frequently use 以為 as a homonym for 認爲.

That makes sense. But I don't get the contradictory function. A minister says 臣以為 lit 'I think mistakenly', but it means 'Your Majesty says x but I believe, and I may be wrong, that it is y'?

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

But when would anyone ever say 'I believe something wrongly' in present tense, when you yourself don't know the actual facts? If I believe the book is missing, then for me the truth is that the book *is* missing.

Oh, that's true. *pause* Clearly I will not have a second career writing grammar books. 8D

A minister says 臣以為 lit 'I think mistakenly', but it means 'Your Majesty says x but I believe, and I may be wrong, that it is y'?

Hmm. Grammatically, there are two possibilites with the contradictory function. A) The king says X, and the minister thinks that the king is wrong, and that Y is true; or B) The king says X, and the minister realises that his previously-held belief Y is incorrect, and that the king's X is correct. Of course in fact a courtier would never say B. If he were wrong and the king points out his error, he would apologise immediately. Saying B would sound like he's making excuses.

Although as I said woxin's ministers use 以為 like the neutral 認爲. I can't remember exactly — tudou is such a pain — but Wen Zhong may be the one who uses the A usage most? I dunno, could be my brain fabricating words.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

I keep hearing 臣以為 in Wen Zhong's voice, for sure. ^_^ But I think Fan Li uses it a couple of times as well-- again, just meaning 認爲.

[mvrdrk.livejournal.com]

Still, that's very cool. I think the 以為 is softer, so it can be used from inferior to superior in a way that 認爲, which strikes me as peer to peer, can't.

In woxin, and I haven't seen any in nearly a year, I suspect GouJian asks people what they 認爲 but they always reply what they 以為.

[xsmoonshine.livejournal.com]

Huh. I've always used, and heard it in the sense of "I thought (mistakenly) that this was the case...".

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Implied past tense, then?

[xsmoonshine.livejournal.com]

Yup. Generally in response to something - say,

Fu Chai: That Xi Shi girl is really pretty, isn't she?
WZX: (surprised) I thought you had something for the king of Yue!

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

I've used it simply to contradict someone, regardless of who was wrong...

[xsmoonshine.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that would work too. I'd use it as a gentler correction/disagreement thing. =)

[feliciter.livejournal.com]

Implied past tense

Like a contraction of 以(前) (previously)(认)为 (thought)?

But if used by inferior to superior, then yes, is probably a softer way of expressing one's opinion ("I thought/think that" vs. "I am of the opinion/I recognize (认) that"). Too, the down-up sound of 以 (yi), to my ear, is less forceful than the descending sound of 认 (ren).

(Clearly I am thinking too much about this, but I haven't been able to watch Woxin Down Under, on account of the insane broadband charges and no DVDs)

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

incandescens has a quote which only took me fifteen minutes to find from Wittgenstein: "If there were a verb meaning "to believe falsely," it would not have any significant first person, present indicative." 以为 exists and presumably does have a theoretical first present, but surely its sense is always about a past situation the speaker now understands to have been mistaken?

In *civilized* countries, she says heavily, broadband is supplied at the residences of visiting scholars. Have you a DVD player though? And how much longer will you be in that benighted place anyway?

[feliciter.livejournal.com]

its sense is always about a past situation the speaker now understands to have been mistaken?

That's how it's now used, yes. But why the writers chose to have Yue officials use it in lieu of 认为, I have no idea.

broadband is supplied at the residences of visiting scholars

If only I were actually considered a scholar here - am really more a visiting...*fellow* (official title srsly). Broadband is supplied at work, but we have to provide own laptops and there are restrictions on usage.
I don't have a DVD player, but that is no great loss :D Will be here until September.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Fellows are scholars where I come from, and treated better than Oz seems to be treating you guys.

Mhh- but do you have a laptop? One that plays DVDs? I could burn you some of Goujian's Greatest Hits to play on same, if so.

(September? That's half a year away...)

[feliciter.livejournal.com]

They are treating me as well as they do the other visiting fellows - the main difference is that I'm being sponsored by Singapore rather than Oz. Currently am functioning as an extra pair of hands and brain, but am mainly here to experience alternative ways of working.

Thank you for the kind (initially typed king, how appropriate) offer! But the DVD function on the laptop is region-specific and temperamental, so perhaps I shall wait until I get home. Woxin is one of those long-running pleasures ^_^

(well I've been here half a year, and it's been a weird combination of "where did the time go" and "oh god has it been only six months")

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Oh, temperamental DVD functions, yes indeed. You're region 3, I assume? and can't even play Aussie DVDs? This is sad. Roll on the autumn-- ours, not where you are.