flemmings | Random cultural question

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Random cultural question

Err, so- when you become sworn brothers in ancient China, Peach Tree Garden variety, are the older and younger brother tropes present in the relationship? Or is it closer to what us westerners call an equal relationship?

Cause I'm wondering- if a character calls someone 'my friend and brother' does he also reference older or younger; and would he call someone his friend and brother in the first place? Close western male friendship references brotherhood so instinctively that I hadn't realized it was a western instinct. ('Bare is back without brother' doesn't necessarily mean the speaker is an only child.) What about Chinese friendship?

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I can only speak for Singaporean Chinese, so this might not apply as much/might apply even more strongly to Chinese Chinese, but for us, an awareness of the seniority in relationships is invariably present. It's crucial in the way we treat anyone, starting from what you call them (in Mandarin or some other dialect) in the first place.

'Brother' and 'sister' don't connotate elder-younger relationships, but in Mandarin, they do. So just using the correct form of address establishes that you are senior to/lesser than the other, and I think it does carry over quite a bit to interpersonal relationships, regardless of whether they're conducted in Mandarin or English, as long as you're semi-familiar with the language.

I have no real clue about the sworn brothers thing, but from what I can remember of Chinese drama serials, the seniority issue is usually, if not always, present.

Just realized that I wasn't quite clear re: forms of address; there are different words in Mandarin for older brother and younger brother, and the same goes for all other relationships (another example would be how your aunts and uncles have different terms, depending on a) whether they're on your paternal or maternal side; b) their age relative to your parent's - the one who's directly related to them -; c) their marital status). So I personally end up technically having to call children decades younger than me aunts and uncles, as they're of my parents' generation.

I knew about the differing forms of family address from Japanese, and was generally aware that Chinese differentiates between paternal-side relatives and maternal-side ones, which Japanese doesn't. (Nor the older-than-parents or younger thing either, or not these days, though I think there was that tradition before the war.) But I did wonder how voluntarily-formed comradely-brother relationships functioned within that system. Common sense says they'd naturally follow the family model, but it's not something I can tell from English translations of works where sworn comrade relationships exist.

There is a commonly used Chinese term for brother which is used for 'generic brother' including the English notion of friendship. It's just that it implicitly defaults to 'older brother', so you have A calling B older brother and B calling A older brother. More later when I'm on a Chinese capable machine ...

you have A calling B older brother and B calling A older brother.

Typo or no? You mean they each address the other as 兄?

Yep, Wong calls Chen "Chen-兄" and Chen calls Wong "Wong-兄". Logically, it's odd. I think it gets used when people don't know each other very well or sometimes for a kind of false closeness. It also sounds very HK-TV gangster-ish, at least to me.

Hello, I just wanted to write that Japanese still distinguishes whether an uncle or aunt is older or younger than the parents. (Although it is only done when written and indistinguishable in pronunciation.)

Uncle/aunt who's older than the parents (=elder brother/sister of parents) = 伯父/伯母
Uncle/aunt who's younger than the parents (=younger brother/sister of parents) = 叔父/叔母
In situations where it is necessary to state whether they are paternal/maternal, 母方の or 父方の is added before oji/oba etc.

I'm pretty sure that in at least *some* version of the peach-tree swearing that I read, the three of them did assign an age/rank order to their blood brotherhood- Liu Bei got eldest, Guan Yu second, and Zhang Fei youngest- so clearly it at least mattered to the historian.

Umh. (glances at those three thick paperbacks) Clearly I shall have to read the thing properly and soon.

Given that I'm bogged down about 1/3 thru the 1st volume ... I should be reading this in the Chinese ...

http://www.chinapage.com/sanguo/001_b5.html for the original. The English translation doesn't tell you what terms are used in the Chinese.

拜玄德為兄，關羽次之，張飛為弟

關羽次之

Just 'the next (brother)'? Not middle or younger ?

次 means "2nd" specifically when talking about sons/men (people? I've only seen it applied to sons)

Ohh right, not thinking- 次男 in Japanese.

LOL! Yes, that's it in Chinese too.

Oh yeah, there's a chapter by chapter summary of those 4 volumes being built at http://www.librarything.com/groups/ancientchina#forums, just in case you're interested.

Mh. thanks. I think it's still easier to read the paper text, but will bookmark.

So the three words for brother I know:
哥 - older brother
弟 - younger brother
兄 - older brother

The generic for "brother, age relationship unspecified/unknown" that I know of is 兄弟. As in 他是你的兄弟嗎? for "Is he your brother?"

Ahh, useful. Always wondered what happened to Japanese older brother- or to put it the other way round, wondered what role 兄 had in Chinese when older brother was always 哥. Thanks.

Yeah, 兄弟 is the one I know for close male friendships. Example from cop/mob show Infernal Affairs II, Anthony Wong and Hu Jun's characters are cop buddies. They have an argument in which Hu demands the particulars of Wong's undercover (Hu doesn't trust this undercover cos undercover's father was a mobster). Wong goes you know the material is classified, you trying to pull rank on me? (younger Hu was recently promoted) And Hu Jun says I treat you as a brother (我把你當兄弟) and you tell me this?

Moving back in time Fan Li occasionally calls Wen Zhong elder brother Wen Zhong (文種兄). Since Chinese elders (by blood or acknowledgment) generally address youngers by name Wen Zhong doesn't call him younger brother Fan Li. (Similar to Japanese name-nii? Except Chinese generally don't use name-elder brother for blood relations.)

Equivalent for close female relationships is 姐妹 sisters.

If, like the Peach Garden Trio of Doom and Destiny, the relationship was formalised by burning incense to ancestors etc. etc. they're called 結拜兄弟 sworn brothers. And peach gardeners did assign seniority but I had the impression it didn't tally with actual age; could be wrong about that though.

OTOH in the period dramas I've seen, for blood-related brothers the elder brothers do call their youngers Number-younger-brother, especially if they're not close to them. Peach Gardeners use this convention too if I remember correctly.

To sidetrack a little, the numbering is set in stone according to birth order. For example:

#1 son
#2 son
#3 son
#4 son

#2 to 4 would call #1 eldest brother. #1 to 3 would call son #4 youngest bother.

#1 would call #2 Second-Youngest-Brother and call #3 Third-Youngest-Brother.

#2 would ALSO call #3 Third-Youngest-Brother even though he himself has no-one to call Second-Youngest-Brother.

Sorry correction:

#1 would call #2 Second-Younge-Brother and call #3 Third-Younge-Brother.

#2 would ALSO call #3 Third-Younge-Brother even though he himself has no-one to call Second-Younge-Brother.

Aaargh to the order-numbering thing. I suppose it just means that the younger generation takes the older generation's pov as the given and speak accordingly. Since #3 is the 3rd son absolutely, he's Third-Younger-Brother no matter what his sequential relationship is to the speaker.

(I'll be sorry I asked, but what do you do about cousins? Are they given honourary brother-titles or not?)

Moving back in time Fan Li occasionally calls Wen Zhong elder brother Wen Zhong (文種兄). Since Chinese elders (by blood or acknowledgment) generally address youngers by name Wen Zhong doesn't call him younger brother Fan Li. (Similar to Japanese name-nii? Except Chinese generally don't use name-elder brother for blood relations.)

Well, with the age difference I'd expect some verbal nods from Fan Li, whatever.

FTR Japanese also uses name-only for younger sibs: you never address your younger brother with the word otooto. (No honorific either, but kids will get -chan'ned usually.) The name-nii-san construction is for all older brothers who aren't the eldest; if you don't number, there's no other way of indicating which ani/ o-nii-san you're talking to or about. Oldest of course is plain nii-san or whatever your family's personal usage is.

Since #3 is the 3rd son absolutely, he's Third-Younger-Brother no matter what his sequential relationship is to the speaker.

Or 3rd older brother, to the younger ones. Numbering may be family specific. I want to say I've seen families where the numbering is affected by sequence, but I can't tell if it's just my imagination or not.

R.e. cousins, I can't think of any fictional example offhand but in my own family we do "name-cousin", distinguishing between paternal-side and maternal-side cousis. The word for cousin comprises 表+brother/sister (maternal) or 堂+brother/sister (paternal). Anyone younger gets addressed by name.

Horrible thought: what happens when there are sons and daughters? How does the numbering go?

(my parents and aunts/uncles are unhelpful. everyone gets nicknames.)

Oh, that's easy. Boys and girls are numbers independently of each other, so

1st brother
1st sister
2nd brother
3rd brother
2nd sister
3rd sister

In my family, it used to be that cousins were numbered according to their relationship to you. So 1st 堂, 2nd 堂, 3rd 堂, 1st 表, 2nd 表, 3rd 表. If you aren't used to it, you have to stop and translate "so-and-so's 2nd 堂 -> my 1st 表" as people are talking. And since 表 is mom's side kids or father's sisters' kids, the numbering changes depending on whose side of the family you're talking to as as well.

Oh, that's easy.

Uh, yeah. Sure. I mean, sibs is easy, but the cousins thing... When 'my 2nd 表' can be either my mother's sister's kid or my father's sister's kid- and nothing saying is it boy or girl, right?- the possibilities for confusion are enormous. I can see why you'd go to names.

(OK, just thought how it'd work in my own family, and must admit we have to add surnames to distinguish who we're talking about, just because the personal names are so generic on that side- all Johns, Michaels, Peters, Annes, Kathies etc etc.)

Oops, that's my being lazy.

There's always the brother/sister word with it. It's eldest 堂哥 or 2nd 堂弟. Everyone's uniquely labeled in relation to everyone else, it's just that references are typically per the speaker so you have to translate their relationship to the person they are referring to thru your relationship with the speaker. Adults talking to children tend to make the translation to the child's reference, in which case they clarify by saying something like "your 2nd 堂弟".

My mother's sister's kid and my father's sister's kid
are going to be numbered differently to me. It's not the case that I have a 2nd 表妹 (mom's sister's kid) and a 2nd 表妹 (dad's sister's kid). It's that I have a 2nd 表妹 (mom's sister's kid) and a 3rd 表妹 (dad's sister's kid). They might both be eldest sister in their own households ...

(Unless they are born at the same time on the same day, I have no idea how tie breakers are decided, probably father's side takes precedence.)

We used to have these confounding conversations between cousins we didn't see often. "Oh ... you mean A?" "No, no, that's your cousin on your Dad's side. I mean M." "Oh ... you mean your cousin on your mom's side ..." Names are so much easier!

Sorry, I know that the main topic here is Chinese and not Japanese language use. I couldn't help but notice, however:

The name-nii(-san) construction can be used for all older brothers including the eldest (as in "Magic nii-san"). At the same time, plain nii-san can be used to adress any of the older brothers you are directly speaking to.

In order to indicate which ani you are talking about, you would always have to use the name-nii(-san) construction, for plain ani/nii-san doesn't have the connotation of being the oldest. In more formal occasions, 長兄、次兄、三番目の兄 etc could be used.

Also, I feel that young boys (including babies) are more likely to get kun'ned rather than chan'ned. Putting chan/kun is really up to the family's preference, in fact; many families don' t use them at all, and it's hard to tell which way is the norm.

The name-nii(-san) construction can be used for all older brothers *including* the eldest (as in "Magic nii-san").

Thank you for the info. In this case you mean you can talk *about* Magic as Magic nii-san and *to* him the same way?

Would female relatives be as likely to -kun a small boy as the males, do you think?

In this case you mean you can talk *about* Magic as Magic nii-san and *to* him the same way?

Yes. The exception is for someone with only one older brother, for whom saying name+nii-san is likely to sound odd, both speaking to and about his brother. (It would sound as though the name-nii-san is referring to an older cousin or someone who is not his genuine brother. So, when Kotaro says "Shintaro onii-chan" in PAPUWA, it sounds somewhat more distant than plain "onii-chan".) The only older brother would therefore always be referred to as plain nii-san (/onii-san/nii-chan/aniki etc), unless the younger brother insists on calling him by his name.

Would female relatives be as likely to -kun a small boy as the males, do you think?

Yes. In general, relatives (both males and females) follow whether the boy's parents -kun or -chan him. My personal impression is that fathers tend to skip -kun/-chan more than mothers do. If both parents skip the -kun/-chan, other adults (aunts/uncles etc) would usually -kun boys and -chan girls from politeness (in real-life, but not necessarily in manga).

in the period dramas I've seen

My parents and grandparents do the numbered siblings thing. We've all abandoned it.

Lol! We do it for youngers addressing elders but elders just call everyone by name.

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