flemmings | Some more spoilery reflections, eps 31-35

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Some more spoilery reflections, eps 31-35

One unspoilery reflection: I've never been so aware of what I'm missing from the cutting and editing butchery. There needs to be so much more than what I'm seeing here.

Among other things,

paleaswater's comment has me anguishing. According to the plot summary Gou Jian was destroyed in body and spirit after he returned, and only wanted to live out the reminder of his life quietly. But Fan Li and Wen Zhong persuaded him to turn his mind to the conquest of Wu... I suspect that the persuasion on Wen Zhong's part took some years. Dammit I want to *see* Mr Smooth and Easy, the guy who was all gung-ho against war, and The Last Honest Man arguing the king around. I especially want to see the compare and contrast function on with respect to Wen Zhong and Wu Xi Zu. Do they think alike? Do they have different values? Why does our Wen Zhong push for war? All I've seen of that particular statesman is (I suspect) the badly translated bit where Wen Zhong says 'Yes, first we borrow seed from them and then when we're prosperous we pay them back', which is no reason for Gou Jian to be all 'But that's too cruel'. This sending boiled seed, was that Wen Zhong?

To say nothing of all the h/c one can do with a bed-bound psychically broken Gou Jian.

I have a theory about Fan Li. He has a little motor in his head that turns on when someone presents him with a practical problem, and then it takes over from the other Fan Li automatically. His voice changes, his manners change, he becomes another person. He's done it at least twice in Wu to date. Goes from an oppressed prisoner or the outraged woeful guy facing the man who took his woman from him by force, to the politician or the engineer or the you name it, nattering away pera-pera-pera. Why did he stop giving great advice when he was a prisoner in Wu? The answer's in an edited bit, doubtless. Or possibly it's because Bo Pi didn't sit him down again and specifically *say* OK look I want to do this how do I do it?

The Yue guys are singing Furusato. Really, I can't imagine what else one would sing while a prisoner in a foreign land.

As for the happy times: I'll agree with

feliciter: I thought he was referring to the time in the quarry prison before his submission to Fu Chai, when he knew for sure that his officials in general (who all have their own opinions, now they're back in Yue) and the man sitting in front of him in particular (who just defied him over a woman) were of one mind and heart with him in regarding him as their king and the symbol of Yue's refusal to yield completely to Wu. And add: the challenge of surviving as a prisoner in Wu may seem simple to him now, in comparison to all the problems of ruling a ruined and impoverished kingdom with your conqueror constantly alive to any worrisome signs of unusual energy from you and his chief minister waiting for a chance to wipe you all from the face of the earth. Simple dogged resistance pre-break, fugue state madness post-break, both make things easy. But sitting down stone cold sober to present the same attitude of submission and meekness as when you were mad is work, especially if at heart you're still resisting. No wonder the man goes grey.

Never mind Xi Shi: if Zheng Dan is what passes for second greatest beauty in Yue... er, I can only say de gustibus non disputandum est, and leave it at that.

On the rare occasions when Ya Yu screws up, she screws up majorly. Not referring to Xi Shi here, but to that chilling little moment in 32 when Gou Jian calls to her as she's leaving and hesitantly says (as per the subtitles) 'You wouldn't care to stay...?' and she says 'No, I have to go back to the palace.' Which may not have been a screw-up on her part but something deliberate, which is even more chilling.

Though as for Xi Shi: what I especially like about this series is the iteration of the same theme in different context, best seen obviously in the three versions of the feather recitation. The Fan Li and Xi Shi subplot echoes exactly to my mind WZX's handing over of Ya Yu to the Jin ambassador. Gou Jian let her go, because a show of indifference is necessary to his plan to get them out of Wu. Ya Yu understands that's why it happened and that's why he did it and that it's one of the nasty side-effects of being a helpless conquered people. It hurt enough that she wanted to die, but she's not going to die, then or now, until the king's mission has been accomplished, because there's things more important than her own pain. Like, you know, getting alive out of Wu and making Yue strong again: in pursuit of which goal the king suffered a lot more, physically and psychologically, than she did.

So I can see why Gou Jian is angered that Fan Li isn't able to do what he did, and angered that his wife doesn't get it either the first time (though all of that barking at both of them looked largely like an act for the benefit of Gongsun.) He apologizes to Ya Yu; he apologizes to Fan Li: and that's why he's not, as he says, the Gou Jian he used to be. I like him for it but I'm not quite sure either deserved the apology they got. While of course it was necessary to keep the wa of the royal (extended) family, since the wa of his courtiers seems to be what keeps Gou Jian steady these days. A thirst for revenge will get a man out of prison but you can't run kingdoms on it.

And to date, the action is following exactly what our HK staff said it would: the tyrant who became humane after suffering imprisonment and humiliation.

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This sending boiled seed, was that Wen Zhong?

The action and subtitles seemed to suggest that it was. But Gou Jian, very uncharacteristically for a man whose mind should have bent on revenge and subterfuge (as per the history books) says that it would be against the Way of Heaven to make the people suffer and removed them. (which is a good thing since Jie Zi Bao had already informed WZX's people.)

But sitting down stone cold sober to present the same attitude of submission and meekness as when you were mad is work

Which is ostensibly why the man is in the moral ed stories...

especially if at heart you're still resisting

which now I am seriously confused about if according to the plot summary Gou Jian was destroyed in body and spirit after he returned, and only wanted to live out the reminder of his life quietly. And I also want to see how (and why) Fan Li and Wen Zhong did it.

barking at both of them looked largely like an act for the benefit of Gongsun

It was, I think. But he seems to be bit...disconnected? from everyone he used to be able to share his thoughts with, Fan Li especially. Or perhaps the new Gou Jian is already some distance from them and only able to connect on a certain level eg with Ya Yu on seeking revenge when the opportunity presents itself again (hope this isn't spoilery!)

which is a good thing since Jie Zi Bao had already informed WZX's people.)

Something else I seem to have missed. When did Jie go over to the other side?

But he seems to be bit...disconnected? from everyone he used to be able to share his thoughts with, Fan Li especially

See, this doesn't square with what I'm seeing. I haven't seen Gou Jian sharing his thoughts with Fan Li that much and I don't remember him doing anything earlier on to justify Fan Li calling him his BBF. Ya Yu is who I see him sharing thoughts with. In fact, suggestive sword play aside, his scene with Fan Li in the prison is the first heart to heart meeting of minds and meeting of friends that I've witnessed to date. Maybe there was something in the teens episodes I glossed over (my memory is bad- yeah, it was Fan Li telling Wen Zhong how cruel to make the innocent suffer) but if so I glossed over it 'cause it wasn't memorable.

When did Jie go over to the other side?

During the imprisonment, WZX asks Heiyi if there's anyone among the prisoners they can suborn, Heiyi says Jie Zi Bao, because his lineage and accomplishments are above par yet his rank is pretty ordinary; and every time the prisoners make trouble he's always on the forefront, like he's seeking death. So WZX tells Heiyi to talk to JZB, Heiyi does so, saying things like don't you think we should be friends not enemies? You're an intelligent and brave man yada yada too bad your King can't see it. That meeting was inconclusive but I think it's understood that JZB eventually goes over; at least we're not supposed to be surprised when Wu sends a servant to him, presumably to be messenger between the two sides.

Ohh kay. Maybe eventually I'll get over the fact that I'm watching a series of which 25% is missing (is that right? Were the eps supposed to be an hour and were cut to 45 minutes, or is it more like 50 minutes + commercials was cut to 45?) But right now it's driving me bugfuck. Well, that and never knowing *still* who it is I'm dealing with. (Trufax: I identify adults in RL by the kid they have with them- Oh right David's dad what was his name...? If there's no kid, I don't know who they are.)

I assumed the suborning went wrong and Heiyi's dead, end of that subplot; and then was utterly perplexed at Spy from Wu passing messages from Chancellor Wu to Some Kind Of Yue General who isn't in prison so he's not The Other Guy.

I'm not sure how much was actually cut. I have the feeling they shaved a few seconds here and there with the scene transitions, which is why some of the transitions are so abrupt.

But they do look different with bound hair than unbound. :p

But there's actual holes in the transitions. Like Xi Shi is running away in Ya Yu's carriage and Gou Jian says Of course I've sent someone off to bring her back. Cut to Xi Shi suddenly back in the palace and talking to Ya Yu. Surely there was *some* kind of scene where she gets picked up and brought back and Ya Yu makes up her mind to talk to her?

Gou Jian sharing his thoughts with Fan Li that much

(Hmm, perhaps thought-sharing isn't quite what I meant in the "open up to each other sense.) The thing is that he had to explain himself to Fan Li in the prison re: Xi Shi (perhaps her great talent is to confuse the guyz) and his present modus operandi, whereas pre-Wu they seemed to have an understanding (the swordplay, catechism on the banks of the river). After his return Ya Yu (again, not sure how much this is a spoiler) is the only one obviously shown to understand that he intends to invade Wu before his pre-expedition announcement.

I definitely need to rewatch the teen eps for the Fan Li/Wen Zhong love. Wen Zhong now seems to become a lot more ruthless (learning from the rest of the Yue court, maybe)in the later eps.

Re: Ya Yu - I think that she would have offed herself after being ravished by the Jin envoy, but she knew that she had to hang on to publicly support Gou Jian, *and* on a personal level perhaps she wanted to see Gou Jian triumphant over Wu. (yes he doesn't get any for 20 years, but the man was sleeping on brushwood and tasting gall, surely that rules against any personal pleasure whatsoever. And I agree that her feelilng soiled and unworthy to be a bedcompanion to her husband would probably not have precluded her public role.)

(the swordplay, catechism on the banks of the river).

Ahh, I see. The unspoken connection is gone. Yeah. Whether that's the fault of Fu Chai or Xi Shi or both, I think you're right.

But Ya Yu- the man was sleeping on brushwood and tasting gall, surely that rules against any personal pleasure whatsoever. But he wants her to stay with him that night. He asks her to. And she says no. Which RL-wise may make sense for a rape victim but damn near broke my heart.

I thought the last half was choppy and badly paced. That explains a lot. *grumps*

All I've seen of that particular statesman is (I suspect) the badly translated bit where Wen Zhong says 'Yes, first we borrow seed from them and then when we're prosperous we pay them back', which is no reason for Gou Jian to be all 'But that's too cruel'. This sending boiled seed, was that Wen Zhong?

Christ. The subs are worse than I thought. Fan Li and wen Zhong talking, yes? From memory, since I haven't rewatched that bit, but Wen Zhong goes, we borrow seed from them but do not pay them back when we're prosperous. We wait till they eventually suffer years of bad harvest, until they've eaten even their seed grain; then we send cooked grain to them. Fan Li says that would work, but it's so cruel; the people of Wu are innocent. Anyway you're not a cruel man, can you sleep at night knowing what you've done? And Wen Zhong says something like, well I will take full responsibility for this sin, it has nothing to do with anyone else. That scene broke my heart, to see good honest Wen Zhong resort to underhanded means like this to avenge his King. Must agree with

paleaswater's assessment that Wen Zhong's loyalty to Gou Jian is personal.

I would really, really love to know just what is that CCTV took out. In the first half the character development was logical and well-planned; this OTOH seems a bit abrupt.

I have a theory about Fan Li. He has a little motor in his head that turns on when someone presents him with a practical problem, and then it takes over from the other Fan Li automatically.

You know, I think you're right.

Why did he stop giving great advice when he was a prisoner in Wu?

He was being pissy passive-aggressive.

Never mind Xi Shi: if Zheng Dan is what passes for second greatest beauty in Yue... er, I can only say de gustibus non disputandum est, and leave it at that.

Pfft. Ya Yu is the greatest beauty in Yue, and that's that.

'You wouldn't care to stay...?' and she says 'No, I have to go back to the palace.' Which may not have been a screw-up on her part but something deliberate, which is even more chilling.

Definitely not a screw-up, I thought. I thought it was proof that Gou Jian doesn't get any for 20 years. Definitely deliberate; typical Chinese female virtue would suggest that she thinks herself soiled and no longer fit companion for the King, but with Ya Yu I have the feeling that it's something more complex.

The Fan Li and Xi Shi subplot echoes exactly to my mind WZX's handing over of Ya Yu to the Jin ambassador.

Too bad then that Xi Shi <<< Ya Yu. Seriously I CANNOT STAND HER, I'm tempted fast-forward EVERY SINGLE SCENE with her in it gahhhhhhhhh.

the tyrant who became humane after suffering imprisonment and humiliation.

No, no, the subs have it precisely backwards. "Bitterness and hardship polish his determination, yet desire for revenge turns him into a tyrant" is what the cover at YesAsia says. I think the series is trying to re-write Gou Jian towards sainthood, by assigning all that nasty scheming to Wen Zhong instead of Gou Jian.

And Wen Zhong says something like, well I will take full responsibility for this sin, it has nothing to do with anyone else. That scene broke my heart, to see good honest Wen Zhong resort to underhanded means like this to avenge his King.

Of course there's this thing: Wen Zhong is an honest man and a moral man but that doesn't necessarily mean he's a kind man. It may mean, as here, that he'll do the cruel and necessary thing and take moral responsibility for it after. WZX takes no moral responsibility for arranging the rape of Ya Yu, Bo Pi thinks diverting their flood wate rinto Yue is a brilliant plan, the king agrees with both of them. This is called practical politics in Spring and Autumn, and possibly Wen Zhong is merely facing the fact, with his characteristic honesty, that you can't keep your hands clean when you deal with people who play dirty.

Like, Wen Zhong's honesty and morality extend to speaking the truth always, but the truth is edited for the listener's ears; and the purposes he speaks the truth for aren't always honest as we define honesty. Manipulating foreign officials by preying on their insecurities and ambition? Bribing said officials at need? Unconscionable as 21stC standards go.

The grain stratagem is underhanded, yes, but no more immoral than leading your army into a country and laying it waste. Or arbitrarily ordering the execution of someone who obeyed orders and rang a gong.

Definitely deliberate; typical Chinese female virtue would suggest that she thinks herself soiled and no longer fit companion for the King, but with Ya Yu I have the feeling that it's something more complex.

A lot more complex, I'd think. Ya Yu has always put the king's (and hence her country's) needs before her own. The king needs her now, in a very personal fashion. How odd that she turns him down. 'I am soiled and not good enough for you any more' isn't really a proper counter to 'the king wants your company'; much less to 'the man who has suffered so much needs you now.' I do wonder what that was all about.

Seriously I CANNOT STAND HER, I'm tempted fast-forward EVERY SINGLE SCENE with her in it gahhhhhhhhh.

I don't share your dislike but then I don't know what stereotypes she's referencing. She looks to my round eyes like a very ordinary woman thrust into an extraordinary role, which is a departure from the expected at least. The great empire-destroying beauty is a pallid mediocrity who just wants to be with her man. I had hopes that her little jaunt to pray to her ancestors was a calculated attempt to rub Fu Chai's nose in the actual conditions in her country, but obviously that imputes too much intelligence to her.

Why does our Wen Zhong push for war?

Wen Zhong didn't oppose war in the first place because he was a peacenik, he opposed it because he knew Yue couldn't win. In this case he knows Yue can sneakily undermine Wu, he's been planning for invasion since forever by squirreling young boys to be trained in forests somewhere. You're right about him not necessarily being a kind man, and this may be just another thing he needs to do.

I don't know what stereotypes she's referencing.

Nothing peculiarly Chinese, but she's so wet. And cute-little-girl. What do Fan Li and Fu Chai see in her. >:(

She's wet, yes, but the cute-little-girl doesn't register to me. The thin voice is just part of the wishy-washiness of her.

I've no idea what Fan Li sees in her. That kind of came out of nowhere, though doubtless with a boost from 'I'm willing to die with you or instead of you, whichever, O person whose house I lived in briefly.' Fu Chai... oh well, this is yet another way in which Fu Chai is deficient in common sense and likability.

I've no idea what Fan Li sees in her

Not this Xi Shi and this Fan Li, that's for sure. And yes, the actress cast as Zheng Dan does not have the look one usually associates with period beauties. (even for contemporary productions, one has one's doubts). I had the impression that her role in Woxin was mainly to be a contrast to Xi Shi, with Xi Shi being more beautiful (er OK whatever) + patriotic + deeper feelings +/- intelligent (I thought the praying to ancestors thing was cooked up by Xi Shi to play on Fu Chai's sympathy etc.)

Er I'm not sure how strongly this came through in subs but since Xi Shi was supposed to be the most beautiful woman in China(? Yue/Wu and the environs?), Fu Chai felt that only the most excellent (优秀) man deserved the most beautiful woman - so it was more of a piece with his overweening pride that he possessed Xi Shi and obtained her submission of her feelings as well as her person, than due to her unique charms (as determined by the cock-eyed casting director).

What came through strongest in the subtitles was that Fu Chai wanted to put Gou Jian and Fan Li at odds with each other and therefore asked for Xi Shi. Zheng Dan's artless revelation that she'd been considered the most beautiful girl in the country and then everyone was saying Xi Shi was more beautiful, 'and I went to see her and she was' also came out of nowhere. When did Xi Shi win the Miss Yue pageant? Isn't she a peasant girl who convincingly disguises herself as a boy?

Possibly after she gets to Wu and Fu Chai sees her to advantage, I think there may have been some lines to the effect that none but the brave deserve the fair etc, but I'd have to go rewatch to find them.

Fu Chai wanted to put Gou Jian and Fan Li at odds with each other and therefore asked for Xi Shi.

Then he got infatuated like woah after she arrived in Wu, but really I still can't see why :p

artless revelation...also came out of nowhere

IIRC it was when she was asked how she knew Xi Shi, but to me it looked like more of the same expositionary/"let's build up Xi Shi so the audience will agree with us" dialogue.

none but the brave deserve the fair

*ded at subtitles* ahaha that sounds like something out of Camelot

Well, to be fair, none but the brave wasn't in the subtitles. It's a quote from... Alexander Pope, I think? No, John Dryden.

ah, so. I remember reading it somewhere but didn't think that the subtitlers (who sound rather pedestrian) would put it in such a manner (Fu Chai doesn't seem like the type of person to enunciate his thoughts in such a manner, translated or no.)

When did Xi Shi win the Miss Yue pageant?

Xi Shi was one of the four greatest beauties of Chinese lengend, of all time even, whose beauty caused fish to sink in rapture. Which was why all of us were so disappointed by the casting. "You mean that's her???"

I had the impression that her role in Woxin was mainly to be a contrast to Xi Shi, with Xi Shi being more beautiful (er OK whatever) + patriotic + deeper feelings +/- intelligent

Ugh. Well there is a certain amount of contrast between the two, I think, ultimately; if only because Zhen Dan is that much more vapid than Xi Shi. But still.

IIRC it was when she was asked how she knew Xi Shi, but to me it looked like more of the same expositionary/"let's build up Xi Shi so the audience will agree with us" dialogue.

Yaaaa agree. One can’t help but think that the script builds Xi Shi to be such wonderful and magnificent and slef-sacrificing beauty, none of which is corroborated by An Yixuan's performance. Even that dance scene at the end, THE DANCING GIRLS MOVED BETTER. (obviously, since those are professionals, but still.)</catty>

I think Ji Wan's actress would have made a magnificent Xi Shi. Casting director, HAVE YOU NO EYES.

Xi Shi was one of *the* four greatest beauties of Chinese lengend,

Yes yes yes *after* she goes and conquers Wu. But in the context of the series, in this impoverished nation where she's still in her village when Wu comes invading and not, say, serving in the palace, where Fan Li thinks she's a *boy*, she's not any kind of recognized Living National Treasure. She's a pretty peasant girl and no one's heard about her but, I assume, other peasant girls.

So I don't know what to make of Zheng Dan's declaration of 'everyone said I was the most beautiful woman in Yue and then they said she was more beautiful.' Does she mean, in our small circle of villages everyone said this? It looked to me like it took Wen Zhong long enough to locate even Zheng Dan. These girls have no national reputation, is how it looks, and I'm wondering at the subtitles that say they have.

Yeah, Ji Wan was pretty stunning too.

...Yue was really small?

I have no idea.

I agree that Xi Shi got famous only because she helped to bring down a country (and wasn't "evil" like the other great beauties quoted in the script who did eg Da Ji who seduced King Zhou of Shang).

Also with rasetsunyo that Yue was small.
Historically Wu was about the size of Suzhou province and the script says Yue was even smaller.

Somewhere in this past month's orgy of Woxin-talk,

paleaswater said Yue was pretty much modern-day Name-of-City. I can't find the comment (really, we need an intra-lj google function) and it sounds awfully small to me, given that Yue has towns of its own. But for all I know Name-of-City is like London or Tokyo, that's subsumed all those little towns into one civic entity.

Yue is part of Suchow, which is a middling little city today, and even smaller back then. Nothing like Tokyo, for sure. But someone said that with Xishi, the only possible way to show her in a TV series would be to just show her back. It's not possible to find any actress who could do her justice, so there's no point being too hard on the poor girl playing this thankless part, and the other females roles are much more interesting any ways.

that dance scene at the end

which had synthesizer bits if my ears do not deceive (along with the faux-Gregorian chants and random Hallelujahs, wonder what the music director was smoking ;p)

Ji Wan's actress would have made a magnificent Xi Shi

Definitely: especially her eyes and expression and she was better than An Yixuan's phoned-in performance >_<
(Or since the script is doing all the acting, couldn't they have found someone, anyone, who looked more like a painting of a classical beauty?)

Well, say what you want about Xi Shi, you do have to give her credit about her little jaunt to pray to her ancestors. I thought that was a pretty obviously calculated move, coming as it did right after her hearing of the conditions in her country, and right afterwards Fu Chai went and lent the grain.

About Zheng Dan, yeah, exactly what I thought when I saw her. Sheesh, since clearly she's meant to be decorative, they could certainly have picked someone better. Though she's really quite good looking in modern clothing, but some people are just not meant for costume drama.

About Fan Li not giving good advice while they were in Wu, did you meant not giving Fu Chai good advice? I thought he was doing it deliberately to avoid aiding the enemy. And that last piece of advice about digging the canal turned out to be designed to look good to Fu Chai but actually empty his treasury and weaken his position.

I feel like the director couldn't make up his mind about Gou Jian in the second half -- on one hand he does seem to want to turn Gou Jian into a saint -- talking about the way of heaven, not allowing Wen Zhong to roast the grain. But on the one hand Gou Jian seems to steadily refusing to be whitewashed.

And that last piece of advice about digging the canal turned out to be designed to look good to Fu Chai but actually empty his treasury and weaken his position.

The advice he gave to Bo Pi when he was first in Wu or the advice he gave after he went back and saw Xi Shi and was thrown into prison, when he said basically No look you're digging it in the wrong place? The subtitles were confusing but I'd gotten the impression that WZX also had thought about a canal to aid in the northern campaign, which made Fu Chai more willing to accept the Bo Pi/ Fan Li proposal.

But on the one hand Gou Jian seems to steadily refusing to be whitewashed.

I'm happy to hear it but as of 35 Gou Jian is being quite saintly.

I'd gotten the impression that WZX also had thought about a canal to aid in the northern campaign, which made Fu Chai more willing to accept the Bo Pi/ Fan Li proposal.

Not really but WZX did think it was a good idea the first time round. Of course he changed his tune when it became obvious it wasn't working out. The second time, when Fan Li says of course you can't just dig one, you have to dig another one parallel to it, I think the canal ends up working but only at great cost, which is as

paleaswater says Fan Li's true aim.

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Some more spoilery reflections, eps 31-35

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