flemmings | (no subject)

I should very much like to write Woxin fic but I can't possibly do it from the English subtitles. They give me no idea what people's voices are like- how they speak, what their quirks of diction are, which form of I they use. Especially the last. Straining my ears to hear the mandarin while reading the English, all I discover to date is that when Fan Li says "I something something" half the time he's actually saying "Fan Li something something." Ah. 'Kono Fan Li', as the Japanese would have it.

Which, ya know, is *all wrong*.

Kono + personal name to me automatically means 'doughty warrior preferably of the Muromachi/ Sengoku Jidai period.' 'Kono Ling Gu Fu' is exactly right: that's what he'd say if he spoke Japanese. But Fan Li is no doughty warrior; he's something that I can't recall from Japanese history at all- the scholarly non-warrior expert in military strategy who advises the king and generals on how to fight their battles. The Zhuge Liang figure. However TTBOMK when Japanese do battle it's their actual leaders and warlords who decide the strategy: Takeda Shingen, Uesugi Kenshin, Sanada Yukimura, and of course the Big Three. Basically, you *get* to be a warlord by winning battles. No wonder Takada has this obsession with the Zhuge Liang figure and writes him so often: he doesn't have a domestic version of his own to write about.

But this leaves me not knowing whether Fan Li the imperial councillor talks like a soldier or talks like a courtier. Which is why I can't write Woxin fic.

(BTW,

rasetsunyo, when you gave the text of the feather recitation, did you do by transcribing the DVD soundtrack or is there an online script for the series somewhere?)

Some years back

incandescens gave me John Ford's The Last Hot Time. I looked at the beginning: all about elves in America, which said Bordertown to me, so I put it away for another day. Bordertown and its writers strike me as just a bit, well, twee: easy, vulgar and therefore disgusting, in the way of my compatriots Tanya Huff and Charles de Lint. (The latter more so than the former, but the former can make my skin crawl in embarrassment too, and has.) Read it this weekend.

I was wrong, of course. Not twee at all. Drawing on quite a different mythos than the other works (which strike me, who have never been to a Renaissance Fair, as being very RenFair/ folk music/ counter-culture of the 70s.) I mean, it's "30s Chicago and hard-boiled detectives plus elves", but elves off to the side, show rather than tell and what telling there is tending actually to obfuscate the matter of their existence. This, perversely, delights me. One could not wish the work clearer than it is, but one could wish for more of it to add a few more pieces to the (imperfectly understood) jigsaw puzzle.

Still, yeah: that's pretty much how it should be done. Thanks, belatedly,

incandescens.

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Now That IS interesting...I think HUbby may have that stashed somewhere...maybe I ought to go locate it?...

Hmmm...will bear the rec. in mind. I seem to have still a lot of things to do which just never clears!

My fault really as I excell at Procrastination. A+ I'd get for it I'm sure.

I love all the new icons by the way.... verrrry cool!

I seem to have still a lot of things to do which just never clears!

As Bacon would have said if he'd been female, she that hath husband and children ~~and aged parents and springkink challenges~~ hath mortgaged her time for the next fifteen years. You'll get around to everything eventually.

All texts transcribed from subtitles unfortunately. If there's a script I haven't found it.

I should very much like to write Woxin fic

That is possibly the most beautiful thing I've heard all day.

Been sporadically compiling a list of pronouns; here's what I've got so far.

Gou Jian as Crown Prince is the only person to use 我 wo3 (the modern first-person pronoun) on a regular basis; everyone else used it only to mean "our", as in 我軍 our army.

All the characters typically refer to themselves by given name. Fan Li also sometimes refers to himself as 範某 fan4 mou3, "Fan-so-and-so."

Kings:
寡人 gua3 ren2 lit. unmatched/lonely person. Also used by rulers of the other nations who call themselves dukes and not kings. As opposed to 朕 zhen4 later used by emporers, which is where I think the Japanese chin came from.

Generals:
末將 mo4 jiang4 lit. humble general but AFAIK taken as a whole it designates middle to upper ranking military men. Usually used when someone addresses them e.g. Shi Mai goes "靈姑浮將軍" and Ling Gu Fu goes "末將在."

Officials (both military and civil) when speaking to kings:
臣 chen2 lit. official. Most commonly used by all officials.
微臣 wei1 chen2 humble official. Fan Li uses this a lot esp. in the beginning.
老臣 lao3 chen2 old official
兒臣 er2 chen2 son official (princes speaking to fathers)

Old men:
老夫 lao3 fu1 old man, often used by Shi Mai
老朽 lao3 xiu3 (lao is modulated to second pitch because xiu is in third tone too) lit. old rot; 朽 is more used for rotting of wood. More used by Wu Zi Xu, typically when sulking.

Ladies:
妾身 qie4 shen1 concubine-body/person

Low-ranking persons e.g. jailer later on, and foot-soldiers:
小的 xiao3 de4 small one
小人 xiao3 ren2 small person

Children speaking to parents:
孩兒 hai2 er2 child (son)
女兒 nü3 er2 daughter

Family members speaking to each other:
爲[own position in family in relation to addressee] wei2 e.g. 爲父 wei2 fu4, 爲妹 wei2 mei4 "as father" "as sister"

Theoretically any person:
本[rank] ben3 Most commonly used by Bo Pi, as in 本太宰 ben3 tai4 zai3.

All texts transcribed from subtitles

The work, dear God. Thank you so much then.

That is possibly the most beautiful thing I've heard all day.

I don't know if I'd dare though. A bit presumptuous, ne? Prolly it'll all get channelled into dragons; or some stylistic parallel pastiche, cos I mean if I were writing this period I'd need an English style and an historical attitude from my own history that matches, and right now that's wavering between Anglo-Saxon warriors and 12th century Aquitaine and none of those have the verbal refinements of these guys natter natter sorry.

Thank you for the pronouns though. That's *immensely* useful, and will be applied to dragons forthwith. (Ahah. That's what that gua3 ren2 is I keep hearing. Scratch one itch.)

In Japanese old-style formal speech there's a lot of 'stupid, unmannerly' prefixes that get appended to nouns to create versions of I (or, because this Japanese, to talk about one's family.) The famous sessha 拙者 is the best known. Did this happen in Chinese too, at a later date, or is it more likely a product of Japanese neoConfucianism?

You're welcome, though honestly it wasn't that much work with pinyin input.

Dragons are good. Dragons are fabulous, actually.

'stupid, unmannerly' prefixes

It's happened already. Not necessarily stupid or unmannerly, but definitely belittling oneself/one's relations. e.g. 微臣, 微 = insignificant. I suppose it gets more common the lower down the hierarchy you go, like 小人 etc. Xi Shi being a commoner calls herself 小女 small female when she isn't calling herself Xi Shi.

Also in that scene before the battle, when Gou Jian delivers Yuan Luo's message to Ling Gu Fu and he goes thass ma girl? Xin Tian I think it was, when saying that his wife said the same thing in her letter, calls her 賤內 cheap/unworthy interior. (内人 interior person = wife)

I have a gut feeling this happens in later ages too but I can't think of any examples offhand. Other than 小犬 little dog when referring to one's children.

Xin Tian I think it was, when saying that his wife said the same thing in her letter, calls her 賤內 cheap/unworthy interior.

Yeah, that's the ticket. The 'small'-lowering prefixes don't get used in Japanese that I've ever seen; it's all stupid and dumb and useless, and for some reason strikes me as very Tokugawa. Cos classically if you're going to lower you and yours you just use a verb. Japanese so very much dislikes anything that smacks of a pronoun.

I second

rasetsunyo re: your Woxin fic! ^_^

As to character address: kudos to

rasetsunyo for the detailed and accurate breakdown.

I think the princes (Gou Jian, Ji Kuai, Prince Lei and Fu Chai) regularly use 我 wo3 to refer to themselves, unless they are speaking to their fathers (in which case they use 兒臣). Fu Chai uses the 3rd person when stating his case/declaring his sincere intent to WZX or Bo Pi, and 本公子to emphasise his status (especially when angry/indignant/getting arrested). Same with Gou Jian's use of 本太子 (THIS *crown prince*)

Again,

rasetsunyo has put it best with the examples of belittling oneself/one's relations. As in Japanese, 拙 (zhuo2 = clumsy) is used to describe one's work/opinion eg my comment would be 拙见 (jian4 = view), whereas hers or yours would be 高 (gao1 = exalted) or 贵 (gui4 = honoured)见. Also 小(xiao3 = insignificant) or 薄 (bo2 = mean) to refer to one's self/children and gift respectively.

One's own son could also be called a dog (犬)子 while your friend's would be respectfully referred to as a tiger (虎)子, but I think I shall cease my ignorant ramble here.

John Ford's The Last Hot Time.
I shall have to seek this out!

Can lend you my copy if you're being froogal and the library doesn't have it. Postage within Canada is so cheap it's almost a pleasure to pay it, compared to postage anywhere else.

I am very glad you liked it! I thought you might, but one can never be sure.

One could not wish the work clearer than it is, but one could wish for more of it to add a few more pieces to the (imperfectly understood) jigsaw puzzle.

Yes, very much so. And as you say, show rather than tell.

And for once, show don't tell creates resonance rather than confusion and, for me, irritation. Possibly because the viewpoint character is new to all this as well, so the effect is 'Oh look, elves! Real *elves*!' more than 'I know something you don't know neener neener neener.'