"The French hate the Germans, the Germans hate the Poles"

[flemmings]

I have no hormones left to rage, was my understanding of the process, but they seem to be raging nonetheless. Sadness.

"We met this woman from Montreal," my American housemates in Tokyo said one day. "She really hated Americans. Really hated Americans. Do *you* hate Americans?"

When I'd recovered from my moment's shock I said, "I'm from Toronto, so if I did I wouldn't tell you." I could have been more specific, because some Torontonians are quite upfront on these things- it varies by cultural background- but one must simplify for the layperson.

Of course what I really wanted to say was an irritated "You bet. They ask asshole questions like 'do you hate Americans?'" But I'm Torontonian- that kind of Torontonian- and I was simply incapable of doing it.

Americans are quite capable of doing it. I see them doing it today all over livejournal. I'm half-tempted to weigh in, because some of the thinking is so very *wrong*. Then I remember I'm Torontonian and don't do things like that- even if I occasionally wish I was from Montreal and did- and the people I admire don't either.

So sigh, shrug, Ils sont fous, ces Américains.' (toc toc)

Comments

[bladderwrack.livejournal.com]

Oh dear. I try and stay away claiming Englishness, but unfortunately that does not excuse me from anything at all.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

I maintain that it's the basic Englishness of Toronto- OK, Britishness, because we're equally Scots in our founding culture- that explains the tendency to shy away from too pronounced expression of opinion. Immigration changes everything, but it's been noted that TO has a flattening effect even on exuberant cultures.

I'm ambivalent, let's say. Mostly the tendency to overstate opinions and slug it out provides passing entertainment for those of us who find the exercise indecent and irresistible. Periodically it slops well over into the area 'this is not the way to do things.'

[incandescens]

And if everything else fails, we English can always talk about the weather. :)

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Weather is fascinating, she says with no irony at all. But only if you have an opinion about it (and a good memory for weather past) because merely pointing out that it's hot when it's hot is an exercise in futility.

[bladderwrack.livejournal.com]

I dunno; English dinner party conversation is all about expressing opinion. I find it terribly wearing. Despite claims of reticence, upper-middle class attitude especially seems to be 'interfere and know you have the right to'. Viz my public-school-educated classmate's oft-aired opinions on the passivity of the Russian people, which considering relative cultural constraints and tendence of British to do same is a bit much.

... Myself, I was surprised on reading old discussions of Utena to find that, ah, people seem to consider passive aggression a problem automatically.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Possibly there's a difference in people's definition of passive aggression? I certainly see a difference between passivity used to manipulate someone else into the overt action you don't want the responsibility for taking, and the Japanese enryo, hanging back/ reticence that wants to avoid imposing your desires on other people and so lets them act first if so desired. It's in the motivation, which is a hard area to judge at times.

But for sure, passivity per se is generally thought unhealthy over here. I saw one of the lj board candidates getting slammed because when fannish debates turn ugly she tends to draw back and, god forbid, wait a while to see what happens. Instead of, yanno, reiterating her position in ever more heated terms to an unlistening opposition as everyone else does.

[bladderwrack.livejournal.com]

Eh, I didn't know hanging back counted as passive aggression too ...

Seemed to be a) keeping inner feelings unknowable and b) expressing one's opnions by ambiguously worded digs rather than being upfront. Which, sure this can be carried to unhealthy extremes, but a lot of the time such behaviour strikes me as perfectly sensible and polite.

Also careful description of honne and tatamae (sp?) in textbooks has me waving my arms like, how is presenting a polite face to the world at all unusual? Possibly there is some cultural subtlety I am missing.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Hanging back can be seen as passive aggression- your refusal to act requires the other person to act instead. Hence it's manipulative.

Yes, well, I'm with you on concealment of feelings and indirection being perfectly sensible and polite when not taken to extremes. But reading these things correctly does depend on there being a homogeneity of cultural background. If you come from an upfront lay-it-all-out culture, like most of NAmerica, it can feel like walking in a fog with no sign posts. 'Why won't you *tell* me what you want?'

(Story from a German woman I knew, also an up-front culture. She'd au paired in England. One day her employer said to her 'It'd be nice if the windows were clean' and Urte agreed that indeed it would be nice, and didn't understand why the woman seemed so displeased. Urte thought it very funny when she found out.)

Tatemae. IME most people do honne and tatemae, they just draw the lines in different places. Even here, people who say everything that comes into their heads, the way 4-year-olds do, are seen as socially lacking.