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Woxin rewatch, eps 6-8
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feliciter's excellent habit of taking notes, thus the prolixity.
Henh. Ku Cheng calls himself a dog when he begs to go off in exile with Gou Jian. And I'm sure Gou Jian's motives for slashing through Shi Mai's sleeve (that Ku Cheng's holding) and barking "Don't *beg* him!" has other motives than personal attachment (dislike of anyone begging Shi Mai for anything, dislike of a member of his household abasing himself) but, hell, bullet-proof kinks are bullet-proof kinks. But who the hell, and what the hell, is Ku Cheng anyway? (Random thought: Gou Jian's bastard son from an early liaison? He'd still work better as a eunuch. Not sure what the moustache and armour in the last eps was all about, unless we're supposed to believe early Ku Cheng is an adolescent page who finally grows up.)
(Note mirroring: our first cut sleeve, indicating the opposite of Wen Zhong's.)
Hah, Dancing Gou Jian in the conga line. Ya know, I thought that dancing figure in the credits, the one kicking up its heels so gaily, was him too. Ah well.
Yes, yes, you're right. Gou Jian's hubris here, just before the king's death, is looking pretty damned hubristic.
So is Fu Chai's earlier on. 'Lemme handle this lemme do it lemme lemme.' I always wondered if he was meant to be as overweening and ineffectual as he looked. Then in the final ep he accuses himself of mediocrity and not realizing his limitations.
Forget post-Return To Yue kewl Gou Jian. His kewlness is not a patch on Gou Jian's ep 7 kewlness. See, this is where he starts looking like Richard II to me, Richard from the first part of the play. The 'let's make all haste and pray we come too late' guy. 'Oh. The king's dead. Just to mention.'
Ahhh, Ya Yu. Gou Jian's first and best counsellor. She finishes his sentences. ETA: no, of course, he finishes *hers*. How like a man.
And this time round I see Gou Jian was refusing to become king and not seeing the courtiers who came to beg him to do so. Possibly a tactic to rein them in, but what would he have done if they'd decided to go for a cousin or his own son instead? (See note at bottom about Yuean consensus.) Did Gou Jian actually have doubts about the whole thing? And I suppose it says something good about the old king that he only has two sons. Helu has a flipping army of them. But Helu can't keep it in his fundoshi or the Spring-Autumn equivalent of same.
A little WTFery with the time line, whereby as we see it Hao Jing meets Fan Li /after/ the old king dies, and then says Fan Li advised him he'd lose his position in the succession scuffle that happened /before/ the old king dies. Please not to flashback without black borders to indicate it *is* a flashback.
Fan Li looks better second time around, with the advice from youse guys that it's not all airy-fairy 'looka me throw my diviner's stones no of course I don't believe them' flummery, but an almost superhuman prescient insight into the situation. (Though anyone with a brain would have known Hao Jing's position was shaky after he refused to go see the old kingin bed. OTOH that raises the question, how would Fan Li have known that? Raises further questions all through series of how everyone knows all the things they do, like f'rinstance exactly where Hei Yi's family lives.)
Still don't know why Gou Jian comes and taps Fan Li on the shoulder instead of addressing him from atop the dais as he does Wen Zhong, unless this is supposed to be /Gou Jian's/ almost superhuman prescience.
Am seeing Fan Li as a nice guy who always wanted to go into the wine trade but Mama made him be adoctor wandering king's advisor instead. Am taking notes for dragon relations on how any official in any state but naturally has friends in the other states, even the nominally enemy ones, to be called on at need.
Wen Zhong. Ahh, Wen Zhong. And when *he* finishes Gou Jian's sentences, Gou Jian tells him not to. ^_^
There's something vaguely camel-like about WZ's normal sniffy expression, but a sensible camel, if you understand me. Camelian superiority never seems justified by anything one can see (the Arabic story is that Allah whispered his last most secretest name in the camel's ear and *that's* why they look as they do) but WZ's sniffiness (and refusal to kneel to the man who's saved his life) makes him look immensely likable, when by rights it ought to make him look the exact opposite.
Though I don't get what Gou Jian's last line is all about in that first interview. Subtitles have the exchange going more or less as:
GJ: And if you betray me how should I punish you?
WZ: If I betray you (strikes 'as Heaven is my witness' pose) Heaven itself will punish me
GJ: I can't hear you.
Turn on Chinese subtitles, yup, I can't hear you is what he's saying. But what does it *mean*?
Maybe just me but I see a nice balancing of scenes between the one where Hao Jin comes to plead for Wen Zhong's rescue and Gou Jian coolly weighs the man's life in his hand, and the one where Wen Zhong (essentially) pleads for Shi Mai's, whom Gou JIan has determined to spare anyway. One common factor possibly being a feeling that there's something Gou Jian wants to hear and is waiting for someone else to say aloud. Obvious in the latter scene (he not only says as much, he says it several times to his thick-headed counsellors: Give me a reason to keep him alive) but possible in the former?
The argument there, to ang moh me certainly, should have been 'Yue physically prevented Wen Zhong from fulfilling his mission. Yue, not Wen Zhong, is responsible for the destruction of Chu's troops. Therefore Yue has a moral obligation to save Wen Zhong's life, now forfeit because he didn't fulfill his mission.' Gou Jian puts it in terms of the practical consequence of not meeting the moral obligation: no one will trust us. Which I suppose is sense- weak nations like Yue depend on the friendship of other nations, better look reliable even if, or maybe especially because, you've looked stunningly unreliable the last time someone tried to be friendly to you. It still felt somehow off to me, as if Gou Jian was considering some other matter entirely and Wen Zhong's life or death was merely the pretext.
Still makes a nice change, both times, from 'Well at least you've finally killed *someone*' fire-eating!Gou Jian.
Something oddly de facto democratic about Yue. Thought this was the period of absolute monarchies and kings doing as they please. Which is fine if you're Helu, I suppose. Doesn't worry what his courtiers are thinking. But consensus at court, or at least the appearance of consensus, is looking rather a big thing in Yue.
feliciter's excellent habit of taking notes, thus the prolixity. Henh. Ku Cheng calls himself a dog when he begs to go off in exile with Gou Jian. And I'm sure Gou Jian's motives for slashing through Shi Mai's sleeve (that Ku Cheng's holding) and barking "Don't *beg* him!" has other motives than personal attachment (dislike of anyone begging Shi Mai for anything, dislike of a member of his household abasing himself) but, hell, bullet-proof kinks are bullet-proof kinks. But who the hell, and what the hell, is Ku Cheng anyway? (Random thought: Gou Jian's bastard son from an early liaison? He'd still work better as a eunuch. Not sure what the moustache and armour in the last eps was all about, unless we're supposed to believe early Ku Cheng is an adolescent page who finally grows up.)
(Note mirroring: our first cut sleeve, indicating the opposite of Wen Zhong's.)
Hah, Dancing Gou Jian in the conga line. Ya know, I thought that dancing figure in the credits, the one kicking up its heels so gaily, was him too. Ah well.
Yes, yes, you're right. Gou Jian's hubris here, just before the king's death, is looking pretty damned hubristic.
So is Fu Chai's earlier on. 'Lemme handle this lemme do it lemme lemme.' I always wondered if he was meant to be as overweening and ineffectual as he looked. Then in the final ep he accuses himself of mediocrity and not realizing his limitations.
Forget post-Return To Yue kewl Gou Jian. His kewlness is not a patch on Gou Jian's ep 7 kewlness. See, this is where he starts looking like Richard II to me, Richard from the first part of the play. The 'let's make all haste and pray we come too late' guy. 'Oh. The king's dead. Just to mention.'
Ahhh, Ya Yu. Gou Jian's first and best counsellor. She finishes his sentences. ETA: no, of course, he finishes *hers*. How like a man.
And this time round I see Gou Jian was refusing to become king and not seeing the courtiers who came to beg him to do so. Possibly a tactic to rein them in, but what would he have done if they'd decided to go for a cousin or his own son instead? (See note at bottom about Yuean consensus.) Did Gou Jian actually have doubts about the whole thing? And I suppose it says something good about the old king that he only has two sons. Helu has a flipping army of them. But Helu can't keep it in his fundoshi or the Spring-Autumn equivalent of same.
A little WTFery with the time line, whereby as we see it Hao Jing meets Fan Li /after/ the old king dies, and then says Fan Li advised him he'd lose his position in the succession scuffle that happened /before/ the old king dies. Please not to flashback without black borders to indicate it *is* a flashback.
Fan Li looks better second time around, with the advice from youse guys that it's not all airy-fairy 'looka me throw my diviner's stones no of course I don't believe them' flummery, but an almost superhuman prescient insight into the situation. (Though anyone with a brain would have known Hao Jing's position was shaky after he refused to go see the old king
Still don't know why Gou Jian comes and taps Fan Li on the shoulder instead of addressing him from atop the dais as he does Wen Zhong, unless this is supposed to be /Gou Jian's/ almost superhuman prescience.
Am seeing Fan Li as a nice guy who always wanted to go into the wine trade but Mama made him be a
Wen Zhong. Ahh, Wen Zhong. And when *he* finishes Gou Jian's sentences, Gou Jian tells him not to. ^_^
There's something vaguely camel-like about WZ's normal sniffy expression, but a sensible camel, if you understand me. Camelian superiority never seems justified by anything one can see (the Arabic story is that Allah whispered his last most secretest name in the camel's ear and *that's* why they look as they do) but WZ's sniffiness (and refusal to kneel to the man who's saved his life) makes him look immensely likable, when by rights it ought to make him look the exact opposite.
Though I don't get what Gou Jian's last line is all about in that first interview. Subtitles have the exchange going more or less as:
GJ: And if you betray me how should I punish you?
WZ: If I betray you (strikes 'as Heaven is my witness' pose) Heaven itself will punish me
GJ: I can't hear you.
Turn on Chinese subtitles, yup, I can't hear you is what he's saying. But what does it *mean*?
Maybe just me but I see a nice balancing of scenes between the one where Hao Jin comes to plead for Wen Zhong's rescue and Gou Jian coolly weighs the man's life in his hand, and the one where Wen Zhong (essentially) pleads for Shi Mai's, whom Gou JIan has determined to spare anyway. One common factor possibly being a feeling that there's something Gou Jian wants to hear and is waiting for someone else to say aloud. Obvious in the latter scene (he not only says as much, he says it several times to his thick-headed counsellors: Give me a reason to keep him alive) but possible in the former?
The argument there, to ang moh me certainly, should have been 'Yue physically prevented Wen Zhong from fulfilling his mission. Yue, not Wen Zhong, is responsible for the destruction of Chu's troops. Therefore Yue has a moral obligation to save Wen Zhong's life, now forfeit because he didn't fulfill his mission.' Gou Jian puts it in terms of the practical consequence of not meeting the moral obligation: no one will trust us. Which I suppose is sense- weak nations like Yue depend on the friendship of other nations, better look reliable even if, or maybe especially because, you've looked stunningly unreliable the last time someone tried to be friendly to you. It still felt somehow off to me, as if Gou Jian was considering some other matter entirely and Wen Zhong's life or death was merely the pretext.
Still makes a nice change, both times, from 'Well at least you've finally killed *someone*' fire-eating!Gou Jian.
Something oddly de facto democratic about Yue. Thought this was the period of absolute monarchies and kings doing as they please. Which is fine if you're Helu, I suppose. Doesn't worry what his courtiers are thinking. But consensus at court, or at least the appearance of consensus, is looking rather a big thing in Yue.
no subject
Oh man both times watching I was like, why would you lose your position YOU BACKED GOU JIAN wtf. SERIOUSLY. But still it's a bit weird, how would Han Jin be in a position to recommend anybody if the old man is still alive?
Am seeing Fan Li as a nice guy who always wanted to go into the wine trade but Mama made him be a
doctorwandering king's advisor instead.So he eventually followed his true calling, and made a fortune! It all makes sense now. 8D
There's something vaguely camel-like about WZ's normal sniffy expression
Yes yes absolutely!
I can't hear you is what he's saying. But what does it *mean*?
Gou Jian being his usual casually seductive self? :D Whatever really it means (and I have no idea) that bit gave me the goosebumps.
One common factor possibly being a feeling that there's something Gou Jian wants to hear and is waiting for someone else to say aloud.
Yes it seems so. Seems to be the primary way pre-Wu Gou Jian interacts with his court, actually.
But consensus at court, or at least the appearance of consensus, is looking rather a big thing in Yue.
君臣一心其力断金 (When king and retainer have hearts as one their combined strength breaks through gold) It's mentioned several times that a small weak country like Yue has only the combined strength of its officials to draw on. (that most of these officials are pretty useless is besides the point.)
no subject
I find that much of pre-Wu Gou Jian's acts and motives can be ascribed to ambition and a need to appear one step ahead of whoever he's talking to.
don't know why Gou Jian comes and taps Fan Li on the shoulder
Err, perhaps to catch him off guard and see how he reacts?
camel-like about WZ's normal sniffy expression
Methought mule at first, but you're absolutely right!
I can't hear you.
"What did you say?! Louder!!" (like what sadistic army sergeants shout when the platoon/recruit admits a mistake or recalls a rule they just broke, but that lilting tone somehow freaks me more), or perhaps
"I don't believe you, say it again."
Most scary of all would be "I don't *need* to hear that since I don't really care enough to trust you either way."
something Gou Jian wants to hear and is waiting for someone else to say aloud
yeah that happens a lot.
the practical consequence of not meeting the moral obligation: no one will trust us
Wen Zhong offers his loyalty a long way before Gou Jian seems prepared to accept it, but the fact that he does accept is pretty significant since taking an official who has on the face of it been declared a traitor (notwithstanding his being prevented by factions in the host country from fulfilling his mission - he could have circumvented these if he was good enough, and I think the Chu King had *reasons* for sending such an undiplomatic man as an ambassador- and predicament being a bit like the Jin ambassador who was tricked into ravishing Ya Yu) opens up a can of diplomatic worms.
Helu...Doesn't worry what his courtiers are thinking
Except for WZX because based on past experience he can out-think the Wu court and most of the other courts as well. OTOH thinking+arguing capacity(or the lack of it) seems to be pretty much spread out in Yue, always excepting a certain Prince Regent who keeps getting his ambitions and opinions muzzled by the senior *ahem* statesmen and has to get around that somewhat with his own faction.
no subject
The uselessness of the officials is getting on my nerves. A toss-up, I suppose, between having all your talent confined to king and premier, and if one element goes then so does the other; or spread around amongst a bunch of people where mutual inefficiencies cancel each other out. (Brute 1 advising Brute 2 about The Whole Duty of Kingship makes me think that if only Brute 1 hadn't been, well, a brute he'd have been an excellent king. And then one notes he's wrong wrong wrong about Bo Pi.
no subject
"What did you say?! Louder!!" (like what sadistic army sergeants shout when the platoon/recruit admits a mistake or recalls a rule they just broke, but that lilting tone somehow freaks me more),
I suspect another case of Cut To Make Time Slot here as well. I mean, if that had been Fan Li I'd have been expecting the line to go 'I can't hear you. Come closer.'
Wen Zhong offers his loyalty a long way before Gou Jian seems prepared to accept it,
Mh. I'm seeing an instinct to trust on Gou Jian's part- reserved, waiting confirmation, whatever- but certainly not an instinct to distrust. Personal reaction, I think; for all his faults, I can't think of a time when Gou Jian was utterly wrong in his summing up of someone's character. And of course Gou Jian seems to trust Fan Li implicitly from, well, their second meeting at least.
And if nothing else, there's the shining model of Wu flourishing under the advice of a foreigner who was disgraced in his own country. Howcum no one's saying 'Hey, advisers from Chu, great, always good for business'? given that Chu's main business does seem to be exporting advisers.
The oddity to me, actually, is that a man of Wen Zhong's cleverness /didn't/ find a way to get a message out to Chu. If it's not pure plot device, it means he didn't warn Chu's army on purpose, and that's just too WTF (extravagently wasteful, deliberately disloyal to Chu, and dangerous to WZ personally) for the Wen Zhong I see.
no subject
But not even 10 seconds? >_>
a man of Wen Zhong's cleverness /didn't/ find a way to get a message out to Chu
which is what bugged me so I thought it might have either been a plot device, or that Yue being completely unfamiliar to him (Wen Zhong apparently hadn't managed to make friends and influence people in Yue), he couldn't send out anyone. (what happened to his body servant? or was the guy only given to him by Yue later?)
I think that the Wen Zhong we see should have gotten a message out, but historically speaking that is what happened (or his messages were intercepted.)
no subject
If the whizzFAST!! scene-cuts were designed to save seconds and were not in fact a deliberate stylistic device, then no, ten seconds is too much to hope for. Those scene-cuts save maybe 2 seconds max, if that. (Noticed another WTFery: how did Fan Li know about the plan to attack Ya Yu and Yu Yi at Lin Gufu's house?)
(or his messages were intercepted.)
Also very likely. Even if he'd brought his own servant, the servant's movements would have been watched to. Sometimes I get the feeling that Yue is like Tokugawa Japan or Sovet Russia- every second person is a government spy or informer.
no subject
I can't remember but either he is has spies +/- elliptical thinking, or that bit ended up on the cutting room floor
again.every second person is a government spy or informer
also in v.small and paranoiac countries with big unfriendly neighbours to whom they have to appease and/or pay regular tribute ^_~
no subject
Oh, my sense was that it was just an excuse on the King of Chu's part to get rid of him. So getting a message out would not have done him much good. I suspect that Wen Zhong was perhaps not perhaps the most comfortable person to have at court, and was not high in the King of Chu's favor either. And consider how quickly he switched allegiance to Gou Jian. All we know of Wen Zhong tells us that he is not a man who changes allegiance easily. That must mean that he did not feel much allegiance to the king of Chu to begin with.
no subject