flemmings | Woxin 16

Entry tags:

woxin

Woxin 16

Yes yes yes yes yes. And thank you

rasetsunyo for giving that snippet of dialogue:

F: Fan Li repents of his error.
G: Error? More like transgression.
F: Fan Li has transgressed, but he has erred as well.
G: Erred in what manner?
F: In that I almost lost one who knows me truly, such as a man meets with difficulty in one lifetime.)

because the subtitles had Fan Li saying 'I almost lost my cofidant' (sic. As per Dorothy Parker, "as in, sic as a dog.")

OTOH I never knew why he left for Chu in the first place. Subtitles being as they are, it could as easily have been because he'd heard his mother was being ill-used by the king of Chu and wanted to see if she was OK.

OK, look. Sword. Sheath. Gou Jian has the sword. He puts it in Fan Li's sheath. How in sweet blue blazes does that make Gou Jian uke???

OTOH I never knew what was meant by sending Fan Li an empty sheath either. A sword without its sheath is a dangerous sword, apt to cut anyone. Gou Jian needs Fan Li to restrain his ferocity. I'm sure that's not what's meant but that's how I read it.

On the other other hand the scene still makes me very very happy. But I can't help putting my cultural monocles to my eye in turn and seeing how things look through them. And the first thing I see is that Gou Jian *doesn't* do pissy pissy flounce flounce here. He does suave and terrible, and if he were Japanese you *know* no one'd be even whispering 'uke.'

I just can't see Fan Li as being the active or dominant or anything in this relationship. If I must assign roles, I find it erotically far more satisfying to have the lower status uke kneeling outside his seme's bedroom for forgiveness because as yaoi goes, ukes don't do that ever. Best you can get is them loving their abusive seme in spite of him being abusive, and they rarely do it with Fan Li's kind of dignity and stillness. But really- no, seme and uke won't work here at all. It's another ethos entirely.

And that's partly because by me one of the hottest scenes to date was the one between Gou Jian and Ya Yu after Fan Li leaves. I mean, it was hot in all sorts of lord and retainer ways, willful king and admonishing councillor fashion, and that's simply impossible because these two people are married. It must be the subtitles screwing my vision. But man, did I feel like stout Cortez when with eagle eyes he star'd at the Pacific, and all his men look'd at each other with a wild surmise. My god, it can be done. You *can* do m/f that's free from the defaults and that references relationships between men. Woot! Female dragons here we come!

Also to say: Wen Zhong is love. (And now I do hear his accent.) 'God grant every gentleman/ Such hawks, such hounds, and such a friend.' While the masculine idiocy and double-guessing-triple-dealing ambition of the other kings and councillors depresses me more than a little- they *will* go to war because in dreary RL fashion none of them trusts the others enough not to- Wen Zhong's utterly unbudging, totally unstuffy, and purely adorkable integrity is like sunshine and blue skies and ground beneath one's feet. A little younger and a different species and the man would be Temeraire. (I want a Wen Zhong icon. Must steal from

rasetsunyo's caps.)

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

I'm glad someone else thinks Gou Jian/Ya Yu was hot, I thought I was being a nutbar. XD

YOU'VE SEEN WOXIN AND YOU HAVEN'T BEEN TALKING ABOUT IT?????????!!!!!! WHY NOT?????!!!!!!

I want I want I waaaaaaaaaannnnt to see it!

^____^

Thank you that was a most enjoyable eerrmm whatever...squee!

I have, I'm sure I mentioned it on

paleaswater's at some point! And well, it's more like my parents saw it and I "watched" it the same way as I watch all of their historical dramas, namely fifteen minutes here and there as I pass through the TV area. ^^; I did mean to sit down and watch the whole thing properly at one point but... well.

I think they're terrific! :DD

*co*fidant?! But christ. Confidant. Well, yes, 知己 = confidant, but.

I am very glad I gave that snippet then.

How in sweet blue blazes does that make Gou Jian uke???

In this manner (http://feliciter.livejournal.com/48820.html?thread=502452#t502452)? After rewatching I can't quite figure out what the sword/scabbard mean any more.

When Fan Li receives the scabbard:

範蠡手上是越國的劍鞘劍沒了鞘大王是在怪我啊

This is the Yue kingdom's sword sheath. The sword has lost its sheath; His Majesty reproaches me.

Mother Fan asks him why the King gave him the scabbard. Fan Li's answer:

這柄劍鞘沈重得讓範蠡不敢承受因爲劍與鞘都是大王的半壁江山而這劍鞘內不可空置無物

This scabbard is an unbearable burden. Both sword and scabbard are shards of the King's realm; this scabbard must not remain empty.

半壁江山 refers to the fragmentation of territory.

OTOH I never knew why he left for Chu in the first place.

I thought it was because he knew Yue could not win a war with Wu at this point, but he could see that Gou Jian was adamant; and unlike Wen Zhong who takes seriously his job as retainer (i.e. correct the King if he is in error) Fan Li just doesn't have that sort of tenacity. Also his mother could be the 難言之隱 reason which he cannot speak of, that he mentioned to Hao Jin when Hao Jin passed him the scabbard.

You *can* do m/f that's free from the defaults and that references relationships between men.

You put your finger on it exactly, I keep sensing that there's something unique and wonderful in Gou Jian/Ya Yu but couldn't quite verbalise it. For a long time I read Ya Yu as this paragon of Chinese female virtue (which is where the Mary Sue crack came in), as opposed to Yuan Luo's more extreme form which really seems like something straight out of later Confucian eras. But that didn't capture it entirely. Like later on there's this scene where Gou Jian goes off to war and leaves Fan Li behind as steward, and he tells Ya Yu In my heart you are the true steward of this country which was !!!!!

Wen Zhong is love.
HE IS. I only have one screencap of him to date however; SHALL MAKE MORE. 8D

Hay, maybe Ya Yu = Hisui. 8DDDD

Must be said, there *is* a lot of old-men-with-beards, dreary war-mongering and, worst of all, clear-as-mud politicking and hidden agendas interspersed amongst the Cheng Daomin. But they kind of make the good points worth waiting for, and as ensemble acting are excellent on their own. If trying to figure out what anyone and everyone *really* thinks doesn't drive you batshit first...

Yeah, scabbards and swords. Still can't see how Fan Li qualifies as a sword. He's the sheath that protects the sword until it's needed, I'd have thought. But the general message is clear enough: We belong together like sword and scabbard; my kingdom cannot be strong without you. Which is a pretty heavy burden, if the king's saying he depends on you and you alone, even if you agreed with his policies to start with. All *I* know is who was putting his sword into whose scabbard.

However if Fan Li can see what Gou Jian's really thinking at a time when Gou Jian's opening up borders, go Fan Li. He's the only one who does. Unless Gou Jian told him in very, very private what he was thinking: which doesn't sound like Gou Jian.

Quite aside from simple advice-giving, I think what clinched it for me with Ya Yu is the body language. AFAICS she follows etiquette for courtiers: which presumably queens should do as much as anyone- waiting for permission to sit, maintaining a physical distance when speaking, having bodily contact restricted to hand touch from the king, and prostrating themselves politely when they give thanks. But what I've *seen* is Tang Li draping herself over the king and making petulant coquettish noises: private person to private person in a sexual context, which is how one sees female influence normally at work. Tang Li conducts herself like a concubine; Ya Yu conducts herself like a retainer. Maybe she *is* Hisui at that. ^_^

(On second thought-- make that *non-maternal* female influence. It only just registered (i r slo) that Gou Jian is the second person to close their doors on Fan Li until he straightens up and flies right. One is more used to people kneeling vainly outside GJ's door, is all.)

Well, *yes*, 知己 = confidant, *but*.

Once again, words fail English. We really have a very bad vocabulary of friendship.

Chen Daoming. I swear I do that every time I write the man's name. And it's not like those hanzi are that far removed from their equivalent kanji. (bangs head)

However if Fan Li can see what Gou Jian's really thinking at a time when Gou Jian's opening up borders

I need to rewatch the episodes between 13 and the choice bits in 15 and 16, but I thought opening borders was an idea thrown out after Fan Li left; in the audience where Fan Li kneels outside the door in fact. Before that it was pretty obvious that Gou Jian's all for war.

I just thought of a default for Ya Yu though; wise loving wife who supports and guides her husband with her shining virtue. But still doesn't feel quite right; Ya Yu's too young for one thing, even if we say late twenties early thirties, hers seems like the wisdom of an older woman, say Mother Fan.

Mhh- you may be right about the timing. It was a total about face, whatever. Suddenly the king's preaching peace and face to face negotiations with Fu Chai, and you wonder was he all for war before only because Wu was arming itself and building a navy? in which case only an idiot would not be for war. (But I think he's right that without vengeful!Wu Zi Xu the two kingdoms might have stood a chance at a coexistence.)

I actually thought that was Ya Yu's default, but she's got too much in the way of practical and tactical smarts to be simply leading by example. Head screwed on right retainer is what she still looks like, even if she's a retainer who sleeps with the king: a fact that doesn't get mentioned overtly in their exchanges. (Well, and no more it does in Confucian female virtue either, I believe; but this is a 21st century product where sex will normally be referenced if it can be.)

'I almost lost my cofidant'

...'but when I bend down, there it is.' *weeps at ~~possibilities of~~ subtitles*

OMG the blade at his neck and tracing his shoulders and sliding into the scabbard

one of the hottest scenes to date was the one between Gou Jian and Ya Yu

Oh yes definitely. Although I missed the details of what they were saying (and wasn't really reading the subtitles) because was engrossed in their non-verbal interaction (esp the hands!).

Wen Zhong's utterly unbudging, totally unstuffy, and purely adorkable integrity is like sunshine and blue skies and ground beneath one's feet

Amen to that ^_^

...'but when I bend down, there it is.'

Wahahahaha!

OMG the blade at his neck and tracing his shoulders and sliding into the scabbard

And shifting weight from one foot to the next so for two seconds it looks like he's leaning towards Fan Li omg I nearly spontaneously combusted.

~~has clearly rewound this part far, far too many times~~

...'but when I bend down, there it is.'

Pepsi up nose, ow. But you see? This is why it's imperative that I learn to read Chinese.

OMG the blade at his neck and tracing his shoulders and sliding into the scabbard

yes yes yes yes yesssssss. "The yaoi fangirls ~~of Japan~~ are happy tonight" as Mary-senpai said long ago of quite another series.

I was reading subtitles, of course, and only noticed hands tangentially. Shall go back and observe. Hand touch- even finger touch- can really be quite hot; I just find it terribly difficult to convey verbally.

Edited 2008-01-17 15:03 (UTC)

what Gou Jian's really thinking at a time when Gou Jian's opening up borders

I read it as Gou Jian strengthening appearances of seeking peace with Wu (much like exiling Ye Yong's family after he got arrested) and deploying troops back to the main army, since they're going into Wu anyway. What I don't get is the speed at which they invaded, but I think Wen Zhong's departure precipitated events (trying to catch Wu by surprise before they could react to the flight of an ambassador) - which is why Fan Li was so distressed at the effects of his private warning to Wen Zhong: he knows that this means war against great odds, no matter how good the morale of the men or the strategy.

Oh, the natural Chinese interpretation of an empty scabbard is that the sword is gone, not that the scabbard is missing. 剑去人空 is how the phrase goes. Fan Li is the one who was gone, so it's kind of natural to think of him as the sword. I guess the reverse never occurred to me. When he returns, the sword is returned to the scabbard, not to mention that Fan Li also said that the scabbard can not remain empty, meaning that without him Yue is without its weapons. In any case it also feels strange for the king to use a sword to represent himself. It's the body politic -- the sword can represent your enemy, or it can represent your army and your fighters, but the king is the country, not to be compared to an inanimate weapon.

Wen Zhong as Temeraire!! I'd never ever have thought of that, but so true.

So what it comes down to is, no matter who's holding what actual weapon, Fan Li is the sword, Yue is the scabbard, and the king is the king?

I still don't see how this makes Gou Jian uke.

That bit about open borders is really the cunning Prince of Yue being his duplicitous self, not even telling his actual intentions to his most trusted advisers, which is why Wen Zhong was so pissed off. Yeah, sometimes the way he carries on makes you positively want to see him made into a slave. Fan Li, of course saw through it, and chose to leave to show his feelings. What I like is that when he returns he supports Gou Jian whole heartedly in spite of his misgivings.

Temeraire doesn't have Wen Zhong's statesman's psychological smarts, not yet, but the uncompromising and inconvenient honesty, yes. And occasionally hrmphs the way Wen Zhong does too.

I'm beginning to think there's something to what you said, that this requires a completely different paradigm. I also have a nagging suspicion that what the Chinese call an uke is a very different creature from what you're thinking, but I'm having trouble framing it.

I guess the best way I can describe it is to think of someone like Elizabeth I. If you were writing her in a gender-less world you would probably make her seme. Or Miya-sama. That's what all the Chinese bbs call Gou Jian -- the empress uke. Psychologically they are seme. By all accounts they should be seme. But there must be something for all the Chinese fen to unanimously think of him as an uke, and it's not just sheer perversity. I think gender comes into it somehow, but not in the misogynist way we in the West are used to think of it. I think there's some trigger that does it for the Chinese, but what could it be... Maybe it's the eyes -- the character the Chinese used to describe is 媚.

What I'm thinking of as uke basically is the guy who gets screwed. 'I was in error, I nearly lost my 知己' Fan Li says. 'Glad you got that' says Gou Jian and shoves the blade back in the scabbard Fan Li is holding. They go back to the king's apartments where Fan Li all remorsefully shoves it up Gou Jian's butt.

I think that's the part we're having trouble with. ^_^

It doesn't work unless you have this a priori assumption that Gou Jian- or rather his actor- is indeed female some way and by definition incapable of the male role. Lacking that assumption, the uke role makes no sense with the man we see in front of us.

more Wen Zhong caps! (http://s257.photobucket.com/albums/hh212/rasetsuten2/woxin%20screencaps/eps%209-12/)

But, but, are you saying that seme is incapable of contrition, that if Fan Li was a seme he can not say that "I was in error, I nearly lost my 知己?" or beg for forgiveness? Isn't that drawing too much of a parallel between the psychological state and the uke and seme relationship? The one who has the emotional upper hand doesn't have to be the seme, you don't even write it that way in your stories, why must it be so for Gou Jian and Fan Li? Fan Li can be perfectly grateful about shoving it up Gou Jian's butt, if you want to put it that way. :P And Gou Jian might feel that he can bind Fan Li closer if he yield in that fashion.

Oh, oh, if you think of them as younger seme X old uke, where Gou Jian is by turns aloof and somewhat indulgent, and Fan Li the worshipful younger seme, does that work? (honestly, I'm beginning to think maybe there's something wrong with me. How come I'm seeing it all backward?! )

No, I'm not syaing semes aren't capable of contrition. But *everything* in Gou Jian and Fan Li's situation puts Fan Li in the subordinate position: age, experience, rank, personality, the works. Gou Jian is the master: deep-thinking, unknowable, playing his own game with the rest of the world as his chess pieces. Fan Li is a puppy, still wet behind the ears, and has just had his nose rubbed in that fact. How *can* he be sexually the top? Gou Jian is dominant in everything: why would be passive sexually?

And au fond, why would Gou Jian trust Fan Li enough to allow him to top? I don't see that kind of trust between them. I don't see Gou Jian having that kind of trust with anyone, even Ya Yu. There's a line that even she isn't allowed to cross.

It works if I want to play yaoi or YY games with the characters, but it doesn't work if I look at the characters themselves. (Not that the yaoi games aren't fun, I agree, but the canon as it stands is funner.)

You're seeing it backwards, I fancy, because you're seeing Chen Daoming, uke by definition, and we're seeing Gou Jian, seme until proved otherwise.

Saved, with thanks.

Oh, now I start to see what's going on. See, when I was watching the series, Gou Jian didn't come across as a master, deep-thinking, playing his game with the rest of the world as his chess pieces. He came across as deeply frustrated and bitter, out-maneuvered by his father at every turn. He is deep-thinking, but in the labyrinthian and claustrophobic way of a man caught up by court intrigue, not in masterful and skilled manner of say, someone like Wu Zi Xu or even Bo Pi. He just simmered and did nothing when he was stripped of his title. When he finally obtained the throne he was still wary of the old guard and thought much the same way as before. Fan Li, on the other hand, is someone like Zhuge Liang, wise and far-sighted beyond his age. Now a lot of that doesn't come across in the acting, it's just something that I probably project on Fan Li because that's how the Chinese think of him. But Fan Li is certain not a puppy wet behind his ears. He has far more discretion and reads Gou Jian and the rest of the court like an open book. So that's why it didn't seem altogether impossible that Fan Li might be the forgiving and understanding seme, though of course I must admit I never though they would actually get it on so early.

I was wondering about that myself, except that now I think about it I saw the series first, before I became a fan of him, and I remember thinking the entire time, oh my god, he is really playing the character as an uke. I guess it depends on where you're coming from. There are certain conventions to playing a king in this kind of series, a certain kind of voice, gestures to indicate that here is a manly and tragic king. That's what people would have expected to see, like how he played the emperor in hero. In Woxin he is deliberately breaking these conventions, in his words "trying to give the character the texture of silk". So if you're used to the old conventions then Gou Jian really comes across as very different from the kings of old, almost delicate in comparison, which is probably why he seems so much an uke to me.

Gou Jian didn't feel outmanoeuvred by his father to me. Bitter and frustrated, yes, because he's constantly blocked by a pair of doddering temporizers who hold the power. Once he gets the reins in his own hands he goes headlong for what he wants: and he isn't telling anyone what that is. I don't blame him for not being able to manipulate his father; there's certain levels of dumb that are beyond the reach of an intelligent man to influence, to say nothing of what happens to anyone's self-respect if mkes himself behave like Shi Mai.

Now a lot of that doesn't come across in the acting,

I'll say. First Fan Li is Mr. Know-it-all Pleased-with-himself, all airy theory and no action. Then there's the brilliant stroke of demoralizing the Wu forces: but it was Gou Jian who was looking at the prisoners in jail and going Hmmm. Foreign me watching took that to be *Gou Jian*'s brilliant stroke. Then Fan Li takes himself off to Chu, gets his knuckles rapped by Mama, and comes back with tail between legs. I'm not seeing any wise far-sightedness yet. 'He must be wise and farsighted because he's Fan Li' is falling into the same category as 'Gou Jian must be uke because he's played by Uncle Ming'- they're not my preconceptions and not what I'm seeing before my eyes.

Threaded | Top-Level Comments Only

Woxin 16

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject

no subject