flemmings | Woxin 6&7

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Woxin 6&7

I quite see why no one trusts Gou Jian as far as they can throw a fit. He's the sort of volatile character that turns into Ivan the Terrible. Now a bully like Wu #2 is doubtless far nastier in practice, but that's because he's nasty all the time. You don't have to worry about him going over the edge into excess, just about avoiding his everyday temper. The difference between him and Gou Jian is the same as between a pit bull in a garden and a highstrung cat. The pit bull's safe enough if you stay out of his garden, but you never know when the cat will claw you to the bone.

Not helped though by me never knowing when Gou Jian is serious and when he's acting for others' benefit.

On a general Sheesh guys note: if the first thing *I* think of when Heyi is suborned is 'I hope to Christ you sent your family elsewhere,' will someone tell me why Fu Tong didn't think of it, let alone Heyi?

I suppose I shouldn't ask what's the deal with Wu's royal apparel and why one mustn't accept it? (Great cruxes of Woxin, along with the first appearances of the dancing girls. If Ya Yu knows we're not supposed to have frivolous entertainments at times of national crisis, why does she order frivolous entertainment for her husband? Seems so unlike her.)

I also have a distressing tendency not to recognize Fu Chai whenever he shows up. He's got a terribly generic face.

Oh, and as for Fan Li- all Chinese strategians are the same Chinese strategian, I hope you know that? When the Japanese make the Woxin anime Fan Li will have silver hair and violet eyes and bedazzle a suddenly very manly Gou Jian. Or maybe *Fan Li* will head off to Wu to dazzle Fu Chai, and gain the release of his king.

I continue to whizz through Kohri no Mamono, blinking at my own speed. For something that light and fluffy and been-there-done-that it has surprising resonance, and some day I may figure out why. Ishuca is a lot less irritating than most transparently innocent uke types, and for my money even better than his counterpart (name long since forgotten) in Yakumo Tatsu, who was not bad himself. Possibly it's the absence to date of any kind of kewl animus figure; even Blood is pretty down to earth. For a demon, I mean. No, please don't tell me about Wild/ Weird; if *he's* the one I don't want to know.

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Fan Li does go to Wu to dazzle Fu Chai, and gain the release of his king. :P

I vaguely remember the part about the robes of Wu. If I remember correctly then only the overlord would make a gift of it to his subjects, so if Yue accepted it would mean that they view themselves as a tribute kingdom to Wu instead of its equal. As for the dancing girls don't read to much into it. Ya Yu wanted to distract her husband from all his troubles, and dancing girls are really nothing extravagant. It's not that he's not supposed to have frivolous entertainment at the times of national crisis, it's his opponents trying to find every excuse to make him look like a profligate wastrel unfit for the throne., so if it weren't the dancing girl it would be that Ya Yu was dressing too extravagantly or that his serving maids are too pretty etc etc.

(lol at icon)

Fan Li does go to Wu to dazzle Fu Chai, and gain the release of his king. :P

Hahaha that he does. :D Although silver-haired violet-eyed Fan Li is almost too terrifying to contemplate.

R.e. royal, uh, carraige I think it was, I think someone mentioned it's something the 周天子 i.e. theoretical ruler of everyone would/should do. As

paleaswater says accepting it means tribute to Wu.

R.e. Ya Yu I think it's good that we see this small misjudgement on her part, otherwise throughout the series it's all ohh Ya Yu how well you know me etc. etc. etc. and Y = P yes? Also I think it makes a nice conterpoint to episode 7 when Gou Jian himself ~~frolics among~~ orders the dancing girls himself.

R.e. Heiyi it's like, Fu Tong says he will help him gain royal employment again so I suppose Heyi thought Gou Jian would be properly grateful for Heiyi's help in gaining the kingship. As for Fu Tong, he probably wasn't planning for anything after the assasination, frankly. Why didn't it occur to either man that Gou Jian would have ordered the assasin and family hunted down in any case? Huh, men.

I also have a distressing tendency not to recognize Fu Chai whenever he shows up. He's got a terribly generic face.

But he's the only one with a moustache in the shape of the character 八! And that ridiculous swirl of hair in front of his topknot!

As for Fu Tong, he probably wasn't planning for anything after the assasination, frankly.

He was planning on being dead and sucks to be everyone else. Well, fine, but dear God, did Hei Yi not realize *you can't go around assassinating princes without repurcussions*? Fu Tong may have been near the end of his rope, but that Hei Yi is so overcome surprised to find his house burned to the ground-... Men, as you say.

Fan Li- man, I might start disliking him just in order to be perverse. Here's our brilliant unflappable strategist and I'm waiting him to come up with some strategy already, instead of general platitudes about what troops need if we only had like half a year to give it to them. (grump) Hoping he'll redeem himself in the next eps (have finished 8.)

But I'll say Gou Jian's first interview with Wen Zhong was like sunlight and fresh air. Finally he meets an intellectual equal, after all the fuzzy-thinking conventional soldiers and courtiers and yeah, king-his-father who've been bogging the action down since, well, the series started. Granted the subtitles are probably to blame for half that impression, still- Wen Zhong has the smarts, even in English, as does Wu Zi Xu and, it must be admitted, Wu Zi Xu's royal master.

Edited 2008-01-12 04:57 (UTC)

Fan Li does go to Wu to dazzle Fu Chai, and gain the release of his king. :P

"But Fu Chai was adamant that he didn't go for smooth-faced plausible young men, so Fan Li had to send airhead Xi Shi instead." Why have your Chinese BBs not done the version where Fan Li lays down his delectable body to secure Gou Jian's release? You can bet that bit'll be in the anime as well.

That first interview where he babbles arcanely about nothing in particular until Ku Cheng cuts him off? He's being deliberately irritating. Don't worry, he does redeem himself. :D

The old King of Wu may be a terrible unpleasant human being but he gives me the impression of being not a bad king. At least he has more depth and, uh, grasp of human nature than his second son. Which says a lot about the character of the times, I suppose.

Please continue to talk about your reaction to light and fluffy, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

i have been meaning to ask, what is woxin? is it 三国志by any chance? i have no clue and have been curious about it. Or did i ask already jeez idon't remember......
Getting back to what i know, my favorite character in Koorino is the bold headed temple master. He is so kakkoii. um ちょい悪おやじi suppose. And i think it might be that you are not annoyed with Ishuca because he deals with his ずるいinnocence (didn't know how eles to express his disposition)heads on. In other words he is strong in mind, if not in physical strength. You cannot help but cheer them on and wish them happiness and peace at the end of their journey.

No, it was clear the first interview was just for effect. It's the sitting around elegant and kewl sipping my wine and saying 'the army lacks morale' and that's because 'the army lacks courage' (gee, ya think?). Strategians give armies morale by pulling off victories in the face of superior forces. Fan Li is looking like the guy with the Ph.d who comes in to tell the guys actually doing the job how it should be done. (It's his kewlness I object to. Certain varieties of 'admire this character!' get up my nose. The mannerless 'manly' American guy, the suave sinister Japanese oyaji, the brilliant and 'eccentric' Chinese tactician...)

Yeah, King Wu is not a bad king at all. And I suppose at the time the definition of good king is one who extends the borders of his country as the apparently easiest way of enriching it.

Shall do, with what scattering of manga remains to me.

Very much not Sangokushi. ^_^ I've described it here (http://flemmings.livejournal.com/179088.html). To quote M, "normally any tv series based on this (story) would fall under the catagory of boring old men with beards" which frankly is how I think of 三国志. This one has, well, the exceptionally hawt actor Chen Daoming (him in the icon) being rivetting all over the map.

Haven't met temple master yet, only the very puzzled young priest who's following Blood and Ishuca around. And yeah, Ishuca's naive cheerfulness has an innate tough-minded quality to it. He's the kind who walks in unthinkingly where angels fear to tread and gets away with it because, well, his innate personal niceness is 100% genuine and unshakable. Absolute conviction like that is next door to insanity; people don't know what to do with it. (Have known people like Ishuca in real life. They're a menace, if only because other people keep falling in love with them.)

the suave sinister Japanese oyaji

And suave sinister Chinese kings don't? :D

But Fan Li is sort of irritatingly "oh I'm so smart I know something you don't" self-assured in the beginning, I'd forgotten exactly how much until I rewatched.

See, suave sinister Japanese oyaji don't wind up carted to foreign countries in chains or wearing feathers and chanting 'Oh the shame, oh the shame, this person deserves to die for his crimes.' I would like them so much better if they did. But no. *Never* at a disadvantage, is our kewl Japanese oyaji.

Oh, er, and while you're here, it can be more chinese lesson time nao pls? In that sentence 稽会你好无辜啊,谁让你摊, what the hell is the sense of 摊?

In this case, 摊上 means to be alloted. "Oh poor innocent Ji Kuai, why did life allot you an old fool of a dad, a troublemaking mom, a Queen of a brother who upsets the order of things, and a dog-like loyal uncle?"

Ah hah. Thanks. Is verb + 上 a general grammatical construction for passives or is 摊上 just a set phrase?

It depends on the verb, there are a few other phrases that go verb + 上, usually with similar meanings of, hmm, forming a connection with something/someone. 扯上关系 for example, meaning to form a connection/relationship, usually troublesome. But I suppose these can be taken as set phrases.

And then of course Gou Jian then ends the interview by flirting with Wen Zhong. :P

Though yes, Fan Li does start out like one of these kewl Japanese characters, but this being a Chinese series there will be plenty of people who'll take him down a notch or two, in particular Wen Zhong.

Oh, on the Chinese BBS people have also paired up Brute Sr and Wu Zi Xu. And a proper old couple they make. Note that part where Brute Sr goes to visit Wu Zi Xu and exclaims over his old and shabby furnitures. Wu Zi Xu replies that they were given to him by Brute Sr. himself, and he would never part with anything given to him by his beloved liege. :D

So that means in the Chinese context one can also read the suffering of Gou Jian in Wu as the persecution of the poor daughter-in-law by his widowed and nasty mother-in-law.

I need to dig around, but yes, I think that was done. Also the version where Fu Chai ravishes Gou Jian, who is then comforted by Fan Li. And it gives me the same icky feeling hurt/comfort slash stories do. Yes, slashers the entire world over work the same way.

Oh, you have to watch this series with us too. It'll be fun, especially picking out the slashy bits.

I'm sad to hear it, actually. Theoretically it should be possible to do aesthetically pleasing Healing Sex, and if anyone could I thought it'd be the mainland fen with the historical vocabulary available to them.

And if please God there's a version with Japanese subtitles available, I'll even learn how to DL eps to watch it.

And then of course Gou Jian then ends the interview by flirting with Wen Zhong. :P

I shall have to stop reading the subtitles and start looking at the action more closely. Gou Jian didn't seem to be flirting to me, natch; he just seemed to be so happy to have found someone he could talk to on his own level (well, and vice-versa) that he relaxed into something resembling humanity.

Brute Sr and Wu Zi Xu

I should be happy that all these old guys are getting some, a situation unthinkable in the west, but-- yuk. No. Not ~~Gimli and Gandalf~~ Brute Sr and Wu Zi Xu. Wu Zi Xu and Bo Pi, *maybe*.

paired up Brute Sr and Wu Zi Xu

*chokes* where, where?!

Though I can imagine that the BBS people would have come up with tales of the uber-seme Prince Guang of Yue (http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E9%98%96%E9%97%BE) and his (historically accurate) young silver-haired (http://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BC%8D%E5%AD%90%E8%83%A5) brilliant adviser after that interlude with the old and shabby furnitures.

the suffering of Gou Jian in Wu as the persecution of the poor daughter-in-law

*two thumbs up*

i now know what you are talking about. 臥薪嘗胆is a very old proverb that was quite popular, almost like a national motto of Japan during wartime or something i think. But slashy bits? who? the man who becomes the king and vows revenge and acheives it or the other one who loses to him but waits patiently for the rigbt time to overthrow him....

i searched the web, but so far i haven't found it. sorry. you got me curious about this program too.

now that i know what you are talking about,i got to figure out who's who. As you know, in Japan we read Chinese names in Kanji and not how is pronounced in China.
Oh onthe lighter note, the temple master is the confused young priest's grand pa(not blood related.) i suspect that the mangaka has a soft spot for him too, cause she wrote an one volume side story about how the master became a priest.

Mea culpa, should be Prince Guang of Wu, who made use of Wu Zi Xu's talents (let's not look too closely at how and what) to overthrow his father and become King Helu.

also, either the wiki article has screwed up the date of Wu Zi Xu's birth, or the series is making him look a lot older than he should be, premature white hair from shock of father's unjust execution by king of Chu notwithstanding.

(Wu and Yue seem to be benefiting tremendously from Chu refugees.)

never knowing when Gou Jian is serious and when he's acting for others' benefit.

I can't tell either, ~~the cheekbones are too distracting~~ Chen Daoming's expressions and voice never give anything away.

Re: Heiyi - what rasetsunyo said. Fu Tong probably misled Heiyi into thinking that Gou Jian would forgive him. Though it seems a bit strange that his family didn't immediately start screaming and trying to run on seeing armed men barge into the house asking for him.

Hoping he'll redeem himself in the next eps

He does. But only with a little help from Ling Fu Tong and various twisty turns of psychology that somehow work out. Wen Zhong seems to have a better head on his shoulders, but alas, more honesty than is good for said head.

The second one, 越王句踐/ Gou Jian King of Yue, the guy in my icon and

rasetsunyo's. Who suffers beautifully from the mistreatment of Fuchai King of Wu 吳王夫差 when he's defeated and becomes the man's slave. His actor Chen Daoming (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chen_Daoming) / 陳道明 is just that kind of sexy that you start seeing vibes no matter who he's talking to. If he were Japanese there'd be a section devoted to him at Comiket, full of yaoi djs.

Err, I'll go for a screwed up birth date. I know people grew up faster then, but plotting the overthrow of kings at age 11 and buildung cities at 12 is a just a mite precocious.

The family is always the last to know. Dad's away on business for a few days and next thing soldiers are breaking down the doors.

I do see Fan Li redeeming himself, but it was Gou Jian who brought the prisoners to the battlefield. Hasn't been said (or hasn't been said in English subs) whose bright idea that grandstand morale-destroying act was, and from the evidence I have I'm happy to assign it to Gou Jian.

This article (http://info.datang.net/W/W1258.HTM) says that he escaped from Chu after the excution of his father and elder brother in 522 BC, helped Prince Guang -> King Helu in 515 and directed the capture of the Chu capital in 506. Fu Chai became king in 496, so at least the dates tally when there is a mention of his elder brother having been crown prince for 20 years.

(Still trying to figure out how they managed to screw up the date: 562? - tad too old; 556 or 546 seems about right.)

Let's make it 546 so he's a winsome 30 year old when he comes to help Fat Prince Guang commit patricide and a vigorous 40 when he goes back to slaughter the royal family of Chu. (I am *so* seeing where my dragons' ancient history comes from now.) It's OK to be evil if you're pretty with it.

And then the whole cycle repeats itself with Fan Li and Gou Jian and karma bites Wu Zi Xu's ass but hard, which makes me very happy. (Chu should put a stop to its brain drain to neighbouring kingdoms. This never ends well.)

Brute Sr and Wu Zi Xu

They have matching lovebird whiskers! No one else has whiskers like theirs! 8D

But Wu Zi Xu and Bo Pi is very complex and intriguing.

Yes, how could they not be a couple, with whiskers like that. Though I'm all for Wu Zi Xu and Bo Pi. Hey, it could be a triangle. Bo Pi's hatred for Wu Zi Xu is actually because of jealousy and unrequited love! Note how he shred tears for dur Wu Zi Xu's death scene. Now all that melodrama is explained.

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Woxin 6&7

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