John Betjamen in Chinese?

[flemmings]

Here is the ambassador from one of the female kingdoms- a mountain, not one of the continents. An important mountain- in their own opinion and that of continent dwellers, *very* important- but for purposes of diplomacy not quite the equal of the oceans. And here is one of the ocean kings. The king is being intransigent and unbudgeable on a point of policy. The ambassador must indicate that she understands his position- though in fact she doesn't- and, umm, 'smooth him down' isn't quite the right idea. Say the right things and be agreeable in a way that may persuade the king to reconsider his firm opposition.

The proper question here is, What would Hisui do? Hisui alas would probably sit and be beautiful in the king's face and then accompany him to bed that night, after which the king would doubtless have a different view of the policy in question. I don't think that works with a female ambassador. Not that males and females don't accompany each other for pure pleasure, but not royalty. (Hisui would be at the same disadvantage when dealing with a female ruler, in fact.) Therefore the ambassador must resort to poetry.

I know there's Chinese political poetry. Du Fu occasionally seems to be nothing but. I know there's poetry addressed to kings and dukes and influentual people, aimed at getting oneself a nice position in the bureaucracy. Some of it is doubtless very good in the original. But it loses in translation; oh, does it lose in translation. All a westerner's prejudices say poetry shouldn't *do* that, not *real* poetry: happily ignoring everything from the Aeneid (which *I* say is pants for that reason among many) through the 16th century and Shakespeare even, down to the poet laureates of later years. Yeah, and poet laureates have bad reps too, also for that reason.

Occasional poetry can still be good poetry, but occasional poetry with a private aim... I just feel it can't. Shakespeare's verse apart, because he took the route of pretending, and indeed possibly having, a huge pash for the earl of Southampton. But a feigned passion won't do in pseudo-Chinese poetry, it's all *wrong*, we need wit and wordplay and subtle compliments, yes? and not 'oh what your magnificence does to me I am reduced to raptures in your exquisite presence.' Right? Right?

Or- um, er, waitaminnit.

So possibly this story has to wait until after January 18 when I can see for myself just what the hell Gou Jian thinks he's doing in the Feather Recitation. Or indeed, what he thinks he's doing at all when he's in Wu.

Comments

[incandescens]

I was wondering in passing whether there's a place in the draconic courts for a poet along the lines of Rochester ("Here lies our sovereign lord the King / Whose word no man relies on..."), but then I suspect that poetry is simply not understood to work that way in that culture. One can reproach melodically and gracefully, but one cannot suggest that the king has flaws. These two things (a king and flaws) do not fit in the same poem.

[joasakura.livejournal.com]

I can't write it in my usual dumb faux chinese poetry style, but I would think, if i'm understanding you correctly, something like.. metaphors..

two things, perhaps that seem as if they cannot coexist, but in the right circumstances become mutually beneficial.

examples of same are beyond my mucous filled brain at the moment. ^^;

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

we need wit and wordplay and subtle compliments, yes?

Haha in this context it seems unfortunately yes. joasakura's suggestion is a good one though I can't think of examples either.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

I think you're right. There may have been a place for court fools in China for all I know otherwise, but the point about court fools is that they're too low-statused for their very personal reproaches to have weight. And Rochester, by me, was just a court fool who happened to be born a nobleman. And had the luck to live under Charles II, because I can think of very few monarchs with enough savoir faire and sense of humour to put up with that kind of impertinence from the aristocracy.

Old retainers in China may admonish. Hell, young retainers may admonish, if they're Rakushun. And note how Rakushun admonishes: via the strength of personal connection and feeling. A quasi-familial relationship, which segues into what paleaswater said (http://rasetsunyo.livejournal.com/72446.html?thread=265982#t265982) about the tribal or family feeling Woxin people have for their kingdoms. So the admonishment is phrased as 'you are in error here, this is not the wisest course,' or even more indirectly 'a wise king which you are *of course* will do such-and-such'-- not Rochetser's 'you're a guzzling sot.' Which is good child-rearing sense as well effective intracourt counsel: promote good behaviours, criticize bad behaviour if necessary, but never say the child/ king *is* bad in themselves.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Metaphors indeed, and the more unlikely and contra-indicative to western sense the better. I keep remembering that deposed king who was assasinated because he wrote a poem that said 'last night the east wind visited my tower' which his deposer took as solid evidence that the guy had been in communication with people plotting against him. We say Dohh? cause even if he had been, would he go and say as much in a poem? but for all I know that thinking makes perfect sense within the culture.

Alas, examples are beyond mine as well.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

The ambassador doesn't understand what the king hopes to gain by being intransigent, since what he's refusing is of benefit to him and his kingdom. She might think there's some deep machination involved but can't figure what it would be; I wonder if she'll realize that it's as basic as the fact that the king simply doesn't *like* the ruler's imperious ways, and doesn't want the complications that he knows will come from being allied to her in any way shape or form. So what she needs to say, I suppose, is along the lines of 'Friends with the highly-placed of other lands are good for a kingdom, and a wise king like yourself will cultivate such ties as he cultivates the peonies in his garden'- ignoring the fact that ocean kings don't have peony gardens.

Or something. Ponder ponder some more.

[incandescens]

Well-placed alliances are the jewels in the crown of a kingdom; wise kings cultivate them as the oyster nourishes his pearl?

[paleaswater.livejournal.com]

Hmm, Woxin is set in simpler times, without the refined manners and the super delicate sensibilities of the later ages, so not quite sure if you want to use it for your convention. But if you do want to, then Wen Zhong is the man for you. He does it by a fine feeling for character of the kings, and sheer bull-headedness and complete fearlessness. In one case, after Gou Jian was sent to Wu to be a slave, and was tied to the pillory for his intransigence, Wen Zhong stormed into the palace of Fu Chai, and said, I paraphrase, "I have always heard that the King of Wu was a generous and magnanimous man, and above all followed the law of the Son of Heaven. but today I see that other people's words were not to be believed. He is simply a petty and vindicative man." Of course, he knew that above all Fu Chai craved to be considered a great king, and any challenge to his honor would get his attention. So I wonder if maybe, the female rulers are perhaps somewhat more direct and to the purpose than the male.

[paleaswater.livejournal.com]

I don't have anything specific, but maybe what Fu Chai said to Fan Li will trigger something. Trying to lure Fan Li away from Gou Jian, Fu Chai said, "Gems should not be buried in mountains, pearl should not be hidden in the deep. The brillance of a man like you should only belong to that of a great lord". Of course on all the bl boards everyone immediately read that as Fu Chai putting the moves on Fan Li. ^__^

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Would be the proper way to phrase it, perhaps. But now I wonder to what extent my rulers and their courtiers are able to think in the terms of the people they address. Certainly some land dragons are bilingual, as it were, in ocean and land- Shanten-oh and Shantsu, for instance. But presumably that comes from exchanging poems with dragons in both camps. If my ambassador is a person of high culture, then pearls will occur to her. And she *could* be a cultured person, in spite of being sister to a rather narrow-minded ruler.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Taking this with your comment above-- I have an instinctive liking for the feel of the earlier times, before the refinement of later periods. Its poetry is more easily appreciated, though I'm basing that on early collections whose poems aren't precisely dated and may be far older than Spring and Autumn. So it wouldn't hurt me at all to have straightforward declarations as the norm in some part of my dragon world. And a version of Wen Zhong would be *very* nice.

Oh well. This story has world enough and time to be written in; and in fact I probably shouldn't write it before seeing Woxin, because I'll regret all the stuff I might have borrowed from it if I do.

[(Anonymous)]

Do dragon kings wear crowns? *sparkles hoepfully*

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

Sorry that was me.

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

Well, since everyone keeps going on about how terribly refined and old fashioned the ocean dragons are; perhaps the land dragons, with their servants chattering familiar as family, are likewise more straightforward in their ceremonies and address.

I like Woxin's conventions too. I find it more congenial than Tang or Qing settings, two periods I've seen more Court-centric drama of, though it could just be the script is better written than anything I've seen before.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Do dragons wear crowns? Little gilded cage-like thingies on their heads set with precious stones? Land dragons might. But ocean dragons don't feel like they do- or if they did, they'd need something different- made of coral or mother of pearl or something. Mhh- daoist divinities have something lie that, but I can't place it.

Tell you what- you draw it, I'll write it.

[rasetsunyo.livejournal.com]

D: There's no way to secure it properly on their heads or I'd have drawn it already. Tied below the chin works I suppose, but most of the little hats you see are put over bunned hair and secured with a hairpin -- you know, those big lethal-looking pins stabbed through their hats and sometimes just into the bun. But dragon kings braid their hair. And bigger hats look dumb with horns.

Circlets worn where the hairband usually is?

Eh I'll figure something out.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Little cages anchored to the headbands? Something anchored to the horns themselves? though that might be uncomfortable if the horns are pressing against the sides from within. A thin gemmed or coral circlet worn over the headband and presumably fastened at the back somehow?

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

The chattering familiar servants are Western River ones, though- smaller more intimate court, servants with more freedom, Shanten-oh something of an eccentric as kings go. Goukou has made his ocean court much the same in spite of his rank, just because he likes to know what people are saying. Maybe it depends on the prince's nature, whether they go for rustic straightforwardness or poetic indirection. Or even an individual's own nature: the ambassador may be a poet herself, who uses poetry with poets and cards on the table with warriors.