flemmings | On feedback

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On feedback

I was going to leave a comment on this but I figured I'd be talking off-topic a bit. So I do it here.

I was struck by one person's remark that the fanfic she writes is her personal response to something in the series- her meditation on whatever point it may be. That indeed is what the best of my fic has been- well, maybe not the 'best' by objective standards, but the most satisfying to me personally, to write and to have written.

If you look at fic as a form of commentary, not leaving feedback makes very good sense. It's exactly like an lj entry. I don't expect everyone who reads my journal entries to comment on them; to do so would be taking self-importance to ludicrous extremes. People reply if something strikes them particularly, or if they want to continue discussing some point I've raised. But who'd want to have their whole FL saying 'Interesting comment' or 'Good point' to each entry of theirs? much less to have your readers flog themselves into coming up with a new and innovative remark each time they dutifully comment on one of your posts.

Equally with fic. If someone is utterly bowled over by what I wrote and *has* to tell me, I'm quite happy to hear it. If it provokes some particular thought in them I suppose I'm happy to discuss that as well, so long as the discussion doesn't start edging out the fic-writing as it's wont to do with lazy writers like, y'know, me. (The parallel being when lj posts spark private email responses that are fine as far as they go, but not what a lj is essentially for IMO. Ljs are public, hence I want public discussions in them.)

But the feeling that one *must* say something in response to a fic- and that the writer must then say something back to you- ignores the reality of reading as I at least experience it. Most fics and most lj entries provoke mild and brief-lived interest. Which is fine- I don't want to be stirred to my bowels or struck dumb with admiration every time I look at what someone else has posted in their blog or their fic site. But that perfectly natural response of indifference isn't going to spark heartfelt and meaningful feedback. So why insist that it should?

I don't mind if people's response is the old APA acronym RAEBNC: 'Read and enjoyed but no comment.' Neither do I see any reason why they should bother to tell me that. What does put my teeth on edge is the pat on the head remarks I used to get on MLs- 'fine work', 'good story', 'very nice'- that I can't help feeling come more from someone's desire to appear polite (or even worse, to encourage 'our fine writers' quote-unquote growl) than from any particular belief that it *was* a fine work or very nice. My FL may consider themselves exempt from this for the most part: I generally know whose 'fine work' means exactly that. But from strangers- no. Don't bother. As with ljs, I feel one should only reply to a fic when there's something that needs saying: and that there's nothing wrong or even unusual in having nothing to say to what is, after all, a private meditation.

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I hear you. I don't even see the point to getting generic two word comments like "Good job." Unless maybe it's from someone out of left field or someone new besides your usual base of readers but even still it doesn't really give much weight.

Reading through her post, I gotta say this part really makes me blink.

It is, in fact, a clearer indication of your disinterest than leaving no comment at all, because it implies that you had the time to read both the fic and the comments, and that you even had the time to post a comment, but when it came right down to it, you found the icon more worthy. Ouch, right? Yeah.

I really want to ask her, what if you read or skimmed the fic, decided you didn't like it or it wasn't well written or it wasn't your cup of tea, would she still want the person to comment and say as much? A lot of people subscribe to the whole "If you don't have anything nice to say..." rule.

It's also easier to do mindless squee about an icon than to say anything about a fic. But yes, she does seem to have blinked the fact that not everyone who reads her fic will like it. And if an implied 'I don't have anything to say about your fic' hurts her, how would she respond to 'This bored me to death'?

I guess it all depends if she wants C&C or not. Or maybe since most of her stuff seems to be locked it's the whole issue of "But you asked to see my fic and then you never comment!" thing. *waves hand*

I do see where she gets the "rude" factor from the OTness of icon squee but that probably has more to do with the egocentric nature of blogs in general (and the fact that she'd rather them talk about her on her livejournal, which is understandable.) And yeah, yeah some commenters probably should get a room instead of flooding the inboxes of the OP without really thinking of it. But I think that's more of a YMMV thing than anything else. The more I look at this the more I think, hasn't this been done? Hasn't everyone and their brother gone through this at some point in time?

I feel a little funny butting in over here, but I did just want to clear up one thing, and that is that most of my fic is *not* locked. When I decided to start locking up my personal LJ, I moved the fics to a separate archive. Anyone can read them over there. Any that remain out of full public view are there because I don't like them very much.

And. Okay. I did also say in my post that I don't think it is a reader's obligation to leave feedback (only that I really appreciate it when they do). And I also said that I appreciated critical comments as much or even more than strictly positive ones. So I guess I wanted to clear up a *few* things. :) I have no problem with you (or anyone) disagreeing with me. I just prefer you disagree with something I actually *said*.

Ditto for, like . . . oh hell, all of it.

If I post my grocery shopping list, I don't -want- to see a string of "Go, girl! Broccoli GETTO!" Nooo. Hence comments disabled when I dun wun discuss nuffin', thks vry mch.

Same with the fanfic, really. I admit that I'm curious about why people read 'em, under the circs (esp. if they survived all the way to the end). But not necessarily about what they thought of what they'd read. ('Cause I can beat myself up sans assistance. :P) So I'm not into joining the beggin' and bitchin' and blackmailin' for feedback scene.

Related: I'd made a comment once upon a time about not wanting to get the pity feedback -- in fact, it was in your LJ! At that time, it seemed to me that everyone was arguing that there was no such thing as "pity feedback." I still don't think that's the case; I also think that's what you're describing here with the fine-story very-nice (etc.).

Anyhoo. I was awfully amused by that post; it apparently was kicked off by that poll in another LJ, the one where all and sundry were venting about the vile people who'll leave LJ comments unrelated to "Praise Ye My Glorious Fanfic/Fanart." And these people even start chatting with people who aren't the owner of the LJ! And they chat about things that have nothing to do with the fanfic!

Hmm. People do that chez moi all the time. I'll try to work time into my schedule to care about it, then the butt-kicking will commence! For no one seems to be properly acknowledging that my LJ must be dedicated only to the worship of me. (What's wrong with you people?)

And these people even start chatting with people who aren't the owner of the LJ!

Saw a certain chronic-offender fan throw a shitfit once when someone had the 'rudeness' to answer the fandom-related question another someone had thrown out in a comments thread. '*My* livejournal! *I* do the talking here! Learn your place, peasant scum!'

One doesn't want to be ignored in one's own lj, of course, but I can't see any sane person wanting it to be Egoboo Central either. I guess I see lj as an open house where my friends drop in to chat. A good hostess is always pleased when her guests get along and start talking to each other ~~and she can get on with making dinner~~.

Learn your place, peasant scum!

*nodnodnod*

Seriously tho. Queen for a Day strikes me as having a -healthier- approach to this than all those women who are sitting about stewing over it silently. They obviously feel the exact same way as her, but they're too busy being "nice" about it and cultivating ulcers.

(Me, I think there's a diff btwn people who're being deliberately trollish in one's LJ and those who are just . . . well, heedless and hanging about in the area. Which doesn't bother me. Else I, like La Reine, would likely kick 'em to the curb.)

~~Fine, as long as it's dinner for me. /diva~~

They obviously feel the exact same way as her, but they're too busy being "nice" about it and cultivating ulcers

Queen for a Day may lack ulcers (though that's not always true, by the by) but she's also going to lack friends- as opposed to co-dependents and toadies, say.

And anyway, if someone is polite and civil how do you /know/ that she's stewing inwardly about whatever it is- people talking in her comments or no one commenting on her fics? Negative evidence cuts both ways.

In the form of an LJ poll whose answers helpfully comprise a list of exactly who all's been a-fumin' and a-stewin' (plus elaboration in the comments). ^__^

Ahh, gripe water for the fan-babies. Naruhoooodo.

Still y'now, it occurs to me that feelings about feedback are one of those things people have to work through, the way they do how much Japanese is too much and how to distinguish two people in a sex scene when both are he. They think they want feedback, then they realize they don't want certain kinds, then they realize that it's not all useful, and occasionally they realize that it's pure poison. A process thing, really. Accompanied by much wailing and moping at each stage, but such is a writer's natural state. *Anything* to avoid actually *writing*, after all.

Broccoli! ♥ Sometimes I comment on non-discussy posts just as a way of saying, hey, long time no see! hi! and all that. Ignorable fluff.

I like the off-topic (where the topic is me ^^;) chatting! Or I would not have lurked on mailing lists for years. Lj-wise it makes up for the current resounding silences/spam on my mls. ;_; I just need to get over my compulsion to reply to everyone and everything.

Though I did get one icon-love comment directed to someone else once, that was only wtf because I had nooo idea whatsoever where the person came from or why, since I don't generally post on communities or comment in high-traffic ljs. (Avoiding communities is a good way not to get weird and irrelevant visitors most of the time, if it is a concern for them.)

(sorry for spam, lj keeps doing the error and unthreading of replies thing.)

Well, I do the same as you. (Actually, your LJ would be a classic example of my bad behavior in that regard, wouldn't it? ^^;)

Maybe I caught it from you. Yep, blame shifting, always a Good Thing . . .

I do get the odd anonymouses sometimes. I assume they're from people on my block list, so I just ignore 'em.

Comment below has strongly brought to mind You Know Who and her online publishing endevors. ^__^

You Know Who

Don't think I do, really. Which of many?

You do, actually. But a quick glance at your flist reveals that this person isn't on it (nor on mine). You're safe!

*shifty* Perhaps *I* caught it from *you* /annoying random emphasis

I have fled the country. I do not know who anymore! ^__^ Gah, that was stressful while it lasted. ^^;

Gah, that was stressful while it lasted. ^^;

But that means you can't keep me updated on the ~~funny~~ grievous woe anymore.

The death of MLs is one of those sad evolutions of fandom. Possibly people feel safer in ljs, which are distinctly My Turf and-don't-you-forget-it. True there are communities, but someone pointed out how having comments threaded reduces the impact of the comments farther down the thread which aren't even visible, and how more recent comments tend further to submerge previous ones. With MLs you didn't have to look to see where the discussion was: it came to your mailbox. I miss MLs...

Threading is good for checking who is talking to who without the endless quotes of previous comments, but... The next option to bug lj for would be a digest of comments for a given post. ^^ /misses MLs too

I often lose the thread (ha ha) without quotes, especially when threads aren't collapsed. OK- that box sticks out *how* far? meaning she's answering uhh- who? I suppose very high resolutions don't have this problem...

OMG, Broccoli GETTO! That should be on a t-shirt. :D (Then if we wore them, we would be cool hipsters who wear obscure reference t-shirts. Yay!)

People would think you'd left the h out of the second word and it was some kind of vegan co-op.

Ah, but cool hipsters love to explain what their t-shirts mean. Win-win situation. :D The Broccoli Ghetto sounds like a good band name...

There are quite a few people in fandom who spend much of their time guilt-tripping their friends about not leaving enough feedback. Since leaving good feedback is hard work, this generally just encourages people to leave stupid feedback so they can say they've done it. It's an irritating feature of fandom.

One of many. But really, it's a no-win situation for the people who honestly do want feedback. Or rather, it's like love: it has to be given freely from the other side. If you demand it or guilt people into giving it, it's not worth having. And a lot like love, people often get it not because they're intrinsically that good (as writers or people) but because they're that charming or likable.

Her point in that link about not liking when people leave comments not relating to her story is interesting. That's kind of a big control issue. I guess, yeah, it's nice when people focus on you and your work, but it's a little sketchy to say, this is the way you should be responding in my journal. I post ergo you comment (or gush), etc. Talking about things like icons or, god forbid, other people's stories ist verboten.

I mean, it's nice to get comments, especially from people you'd like to hear from, but then, it's not good to be "I'm the SUN. Revolve around ME." It's a hard balancing act, I guess.

There's the issue also that some people don't leave feedback because they don't like the actual act of writing feedback.

A weird thing about posting a story and no one comments, it's like it's gone into the ether, and you have no idea if it actually exists outside of your own view of it. (Of course, anything online does exist.) Sometimes "good work" = "I saw this", and for some people that's good enough. For others, it's not.

Big control issue, yes. Many people with big control issues around, and insecurities- 'But you're not talking about *me*!' It's my lj, *I'm* the show! It's like, control issues and insecurities we have with us always but should you go around displaying them? I can see heart-burning over an icon comment when the person said nothing about your fic- the writer's soul winces at every slight until it grows skin- but to talk about it in public gets me, personally, into the realms of emotional TMI.

And that's why I also have small problems with the assumed 'everything online not locked up is potential public property' and liable to linking by people like f_w and metafandom. That's the legal approach; it's not one that recognizes the emotional gestalt of a situation aka civility. If a post was meant for a person's usual audience of friends, should you make it accessible to an unfamiliar and hostile public? Yes yes I know one has a *right* to do that, but that particular western shibboleth is beginning to get on my nerves. 'You was within your rights, sir, but was you within your duty?' (quoting Kipling without book here.)

I agree, the short comment does equal recognition- RAEBNC. Someone did read it, it didn't just whizz past everyone's heads, oh good. But as people say, you never know. Maybe it will make the writer happy; maybe it will infuriate her. Even silence isn't safe as a response- why don't you comment?????- but silence is easiest.

A weird thing about posting a story and no one comments, it's like it's gone into the ether, and you have no idea if it actually exists outside of your own view of it.

Mmm, and I've been thinking about that lately . . .

I mean, both FFnet and Ficwad provide hit counters now. They tell you how many times people've smacked those links. So . . .

You get this warped perspective: You wind up with fanfic with over a hundred page views but zero comments (and, in the case of Ficward, no rating to speak of either). It feels like hopping the fast-track to a novel sort of psychological complex. I think the state of ether and apathy was better in some ways.

=P you could always go update yourself.

Ah, them hit counters. Are very mysterious mysteries. A bunch seem to have started quietly ticking away while I wasn't looking and I'm all who's reading what now why?

Ether and apathy have their appeal... (you have this really squicksome review on your MLR outing. ^^;)

But I already fled that scene long ago . . .

Anyway, yeah, I've found that they cause one to bounce over the mjj feedback spectrum. I.e., it's all about the apathy until you eye those counters. Then abruptly you shift into unsettled Caring Mode (and caring about what precisely? I don't knooow), then you settle back into comfy apathy again.

It's just that . . . if there really *is* a population in the teeny-tiny fandoms, it'd be nice if they'd use the comment feature for nonspecific fannishness squeeing, if nothing else. 'Cause it gets a bit lonesome, out on the range . . .

(You mean the 'Hey, read my rapefic!' girl? Um. Indeed. Self-advertising at its weirdest.)

Hmm. I dunno. I think counters would make me very happy. At least, if they showed that people were reading my stuff. If I can't be doing the 'me and the series gazing raptly into each others' eyes' routine (which lasts only as long as first love anyway) then I want to write for my famous Vague and Appreciative Audience. I see three people have read this fic. I imagine the three people having a fun time reading my fic. I feel a warm glow and am heartened to write more. There are no dispiriting comments telling me they had a fun time because they totally missed the point of the fic or they didn't have a fun time or they loved it and want more of the same which I have no confidence I can provide. Win-win.

That's . . . very stable. Healthy even. Are you *sure* you write fanfic? /suspicious

Hnn. Thing is, Ficward in particular adds an extra flavor of squirrel to this stew. They've a one-click system where anyone can anonymously indicate approval (or disapproval) -- yet hardly anyone uses it. So you'll get situations where you've 110 hits on something, yet only 2 clicks' worth of any response.

You can't help but wonder about those 108 others. Then you wonder at yourself for wondering. Squirrel on a wheel time!

In other words, what -seems- like a nice idea in theory smacks into the wall of typical fan behavior and goes splat. So I find the ffnet system where it's either tap out a review or move on to be better. (If only ffnet didn't have the other issues, alas.)

Err... well... after a certain age you automatically do reality checks, y'know? Oh boo-hoo-hoo I'm all alone why am I all alone where's my Significant Other weep weep. And the little voice says Think back to when you had a SigOth, remember what a nuisance it was? Ah. Yes. Yes I do.

So equally when I'm tempted to do the squirrel cage thing Ohhh my stuff sucks, the world doesn't spaniel all over it, I'm not a BNFW, I'm not the first person people rec in my fandom boo-hoo-hoo the little voice says Whose fics *does* the world spaniel over these days? and provides a short list of names. So, ya wanna be in that league? No. No, emphatically not. I want to be esteemed by the discriminating. (looks around at present company) Oh, guess I am. Win-win, like I say.

The only thing reality checks don't help with is when people are genuinely better writers. I want to write as well as afrai (and I want to be her age again too. Or, well, maybe not) and I don't. Dommage. Or boo-hoo-hoo, depending on hormones.

Hm. I think comparing fanfic to other LJ entries is a pretty off-track analogy. I think of a mainstream entry like a discussion post on a mailing list, and comments as the posts which have spun off it -- an unfortunate effect of the LJ system is that it makes comments look subservient to an original post, rather than part of a discussion flow. If I put out my random (or not-so-random) thoughts, yes, I'm hopeful that someone else will want to discuss them, but it doesn't really offend me if no one does.

Fanfic? That's artistic product. I spent some time crafting it, I wrote it for an audience, and I'm not just posting it for my health -- if all I cared about was some kind of personal satisfaction, it wouldn't leave my computer. Once it's out in the wide world, I don't content myself with the knowledge that "someone somewhere might have read it," just like 99% of artists don't. Writers watch their sales, artists hope for big gallery openings, actors and musicians want good notices, etc. etc. etc. Feedback is the fandom equivalent of reviews, and yes, it means more coming from your friends or people you respect. And yes, there's some ego tied up with that, but that's kind of the deal with creative people.

I'm really, really confused why such a long-standing community tradition as feedback is coming under fire these days, esp. because it's a nice thing. Arguing about concrit is one thing, but why discourage folks from leaving compliments?

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