flemmings | If it's worth saying once, it's worth saying twice

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If it's worth saying once, it's worth saying twice

To express my utmost agreement with

petronia:

"What a writer wants is for people to tell other people, intelligently or at the very least enthusiastically and at length, why those other people should read the writer's stories: to wit, because they are awesome. In other words, what a writer wants is a good review so they can hem and haw in a bashful fashion and spend the rest of the evening privately glowing in a corner."

That's it, that's all of it, and thank god someone with fandom credibility said it.

I even agree with this part:

"So I grew up with the conviction that I know better than everyone else, no one can solve my problems except me, and furthermore my problems are no one else's business. In other words, I don't really think your concrit does me any good"--

--though in fact there are one or two people whose comments I find immensely useful: not because I think them better writers than I (one of them isn't even a writer) but because their insight into whichever series and their ear for tone and voice are better than mine.

(Though to give my two cents on the discussion debate: I wouldn't want to join in on a bunch of people discussing my fic together as readers of same. True I'm also a reader of my fic, but I have special inside knowledge on account of being the one who wrote it, so it's necessarily going to look different to me than to them. Let the readers discuss. If they miss the point by a country mile- as 90% of Eroica fans miss the point of my Eroica fics- then all they do is demonstrate what idiots they are. If they use a faux-dispassionate analytical style while missing the point, they demonstrate it twice.)

I was stung by a bunch of insects last week, or stung many times by one, and the upshot is an infection in my leg, antibiotics, and strict instructions from my doctor to lie on a sofa with my leg up for the next week on penalty of being put on an intravenous drip if I don't. ('I've already had to put four people on intravenous this summer because of bug bites.' Scary.) So that's kind of what I'm doing, except I'm sitting at the computer with my left foot resting on the little lamp table at the level of my waist, which doubtless isn't quite as up as she meant.

However this means I get to watch a bunch of DVDs and probably read all of FMA, once the head-fuzzing low level fever subsides. And go through my backlog of Reload tapes. Setting up the VCR for same I ejected the tape in it, which I thought was 12 Kingdoms but instead was After Life, rented from and theoretically returned to the video store two weeks ago. I must take it back some time and find out what's actually in the VHS case I returned. Teletubbies, I bet.

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Teletubbies, I bet.

Somebodies gonna loooove you. I expect the places with wisdom check the boxes to be certain that everything came back intact, but just as many probably don't. :P

How did you manage this whole bunch of bug bites?

(I've also been watching the hoopla over the cutting board comm, in a distracted, on and off, way.)

I think it's just ironic that a post about not wanting unsolicited feedback is getting so much analysis.

I agree with Sabina that writers want that glowing in the corner feeling, but what writers want and want readers want aren't always the same thing, and not everyone plays by the me-write-you-love fan rules. Even if a writer says "only give me good feedback plz, kthx", doesn't mean someone isn't going to go off about it somewhere on some community or list. Ignorance is probably bliss here. If people don't want other opinions, either they shouldn't think about what people are saying about them (or learn to disregard it), or don't post publicly. Those seem like the only options since you can't control the reader unless you set up a controlled environment (and even then, people tend to get around things.)

I was surprised that so many people were "that's so horrible/that shouldn't happen". Yeah, it's good to comfort the author. Anyone who has had their work criticized understands that sting. But saying people shouldn't look at fanfiction in the same way as literature isn't the answer either. Why can't they analyze it? (And unsoliticed as well. I mean, I don't channel Shakespeare with a ouji board to ask permission about writing an essay on Hamlet.)

I was just kind of blown away by the thought about trying to control people's views (either through guilt or shame) on one's public work. I think people need to let it go, and if they don't want to read people's (possibly negative) thoughts, then don't click on the links.

Personally, most critical feedback kind of blows past me- if there's something obvious that's wrong, I see it too, but am too lazy to go and fix it, which is my fault, but whatever. But I also do value some opinions very much, even if it stings a little (because it reveals that the piece is not "OMG-Perfect!") And going back and changing a piece is hard, but sometimes, and I learned this, it really can make things better.

The friend thing was strange too. In one way, yes, because we're friends, we should support each other. But in another, it's because we're friends that we can hopefully be (tactfully) honest without ruining the relationship.

I would always rather have a friend who I can trust and believe in to tell me what's on their mind, rather than simply tell me what I want to hear.

And another personal note, I've always appreciated your notes and questions about my writing, even if you call it "editor from hell". Even if it takes me a couple days to ponder over, and week to work through, I still appreciate it, so thanks.

I think it's just ironic that a post about not wanting unsolicited feedback is getting so much analysis.

But wasn't that the basic problem? It wasn't unsolicited feedback. It wasn't feedback at all, in that it wasn't directed to the author at all. It was readers chatting to each other about a fanfic they'd read, what they liked or disliked about it.

I've noticed that a lot of fanfiction writers can't handle that people read their fanfic without giving a rip who wrote it. Most fanfic writers are pint-sized prima donnas, and all things revolve around ME ME ME: my fanfic is ME! You must only talk about ME in a positive way! Should you dare to speak about ME without my permission, you will tear apart MY QUIVERING SOUL.

All of which I find utterly idiotic. For I am callous and do not care about quivering souls. But what can you do? /shrug

"We're all friends in fandom!" pleading always strikes me as a little creepy. A girlish, flowerly, fannish utopia? Just because I read rageprufrock's fanfic doesn't mean I'm her friend. It doesn't mean I like her. It doesn't mean I dislike her. I don't know her. Ergo, I am not her friend. To insist otherwise is freaky.

Actually. That display of histrionic ME-ism on her part prompted my thinking that it was good that I don't know her. There are several fanfic writers I read periodically whose personal LJs I won't "friend" 'cause I don't want to go anywhere near them as people. Just . . . no.

ME-ism isn't confined to writers. There was the mod of the TCB getting all defensive about the name of her comm- Negative connotations? It has *no* negative connotations! None none none!!!

If she can get so defensive about her baby, she might cut a little slack to writers who get defensive about theirs. I think it's perfectly reasonable to have two completely opposite opinions here- and rageprufrock seems to have exactly that, because her initial post wasn't just wounded feelings and histrionics. (In fact, I saw no histrionics there at all.)

Readers are perfectly entitled to discuss an author's work among themselves.

Authors are perfectly entitled to dislike being discussed, intensely (and being intensely discussed.)

Sensitive people on both sides of the divide will be aware that the other, perfectly justifiable, attitude exists. That's what I saw in the comments. 'I love this idea but I feel a little odd about it.' Yes. Of course.

TCB was perfectly justified in discussing that story in public. The author was perfectly justified in saying she didn't like the experience, in public.

But ambivalence sits badly with the NAmerican style that wants clear-cut principles and solutions, and wants them now.

It's a questionable community name, I'd agree.

I'll point out that just because I think a writer is chotto flaky doesn't automatically mean I don't like the writer's fanfic. For reader purposes, the two are not related. So, in that we share zero fandoms in common, if I didn't like her writing, I wouldn't have had this writer's fanfic LJ on my flist.

Which where I caught the pru post right after she'd put it up. A few clicks later, I found the community in question. Based on pru post, I'd expected to find eaten-by-rabid-wolves concrit. "Constructive criticism" means that it's directed to the writer. That wasn't what I found. No wolves. No concrit. (Sheer page count working up to a simple "Wah, if you love me, you'll only praise me" racks up points on the histrionics scale.)

I'm always amused when fanfic writers -- who by their definition play with others' toys sans permission -- kick up such a fuss when others treat them likewise. People can have whatever attitudes they want and discuss 'em til they drop. But expecting total strangers to mystically divine each writer's tender feelings -- or to never discuss fanfiction in public forums -- is just not gonna happen.

You can't control your readers that way. In this context, appeals to "fandom love and friendship" are cloaked demands that readers acknowledge the writer's control over them. But, if even the possibility that someone might link to you in a badfic community or h8r meme bothers you that much, the only realistic solution is to stop posting fanfic the Internet.

But saying people shouldn't look at fanfiction in the same way as literature isn't the answer either.

(Hi there, one of 'one or two people.' ^_^)

I'm not sure about this, though. Published lit is more impersonal than fanfic. It's gone through rather more work, for a start, and had some stranger look at it in process (though maybe not very hard.) It was crafted from the get-go with the intent to please an audience, while a fanfic may have been intended primarily to please the writer.

Fanfic is not only personal, it's often casual. 'I felt like writing this and I hope you guys enjoy it.' Holding a casual work- in the same category as lj posts or diary entries- to the literary standards of a published short story misses the very deep differences that exist between these two forms of expression. And when people do literary analysis of a story, they do it in the mode they've been taught, which was designed for pro work, not amateur.

Sympathy on the leg. I'm glad you got it seen to before it got any worse.

I do agree with you and petronia on the criticism thing; I mean, there's what the writer's heart wants, and what the writer's head wants. And of course what the heart wants is praise. How could it be otherwise? What the head wants is much more precisely directed, and tends to have riders like "criticism only from people I trust" or similar added on to it.

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I think the (I can use big words too, like 'marmalade') transgressive aspect of Sabina's post for me was actually *saying* 1. of course I want praise and what's wrong with that? and 2. your much-vaunted concrit isn't that much use actually, so try keeping it in your pants.

Someone had to say it, amid all the 'oh I'd die for concrit' and 'I told her what she was doing wrong with that story and she didn't change a *thing*' chorus on either side. Some of us do not follow the party line.

I still like the idea of readers discussing fic amongst themselves. It's neat. But if you do it in a community and not among a bunch of friends talking to each other, you've taken it from private realm to public; and I can see why some people might not like having their works dissected in public. Especially not by fandom which (see fanfic_hate) hasn't learned to separate the fic from the writer, hasn't learned to avoid the ad hominem, and hasn't learned not to go for the jugular-- no matter how strenuously the mod says that none of these will happen in her community.

Hmm, as a non-writer, all said above about concrit and feedback seems very intuitive to me. Almost like common sense. There are people you want concrit from and people you don't.

(You wrote some Eroica fanfic? I shall have to go searching for those now, having become a fan rather late in the game. I've heard quite a few horror stories about the Eroica fandom so I've been very wary about searching for fanfic-- reading the occasional rec from one or two people I trust. *^_^*)

I hope you recover quickly from the bug bites. Sounds rather scary if they're threatening IV drugs.

And last but not least, thank you for the previous Gaiden translation. Seems like it really is coming to an end. (Or a beginning, I guess. ^_^)

Some of my whoring written-for-the-Eroica-fandom stories are in various archives still. (Umm- linked from here (http://www.eroicafans.org/authorfic.html)) The ones I really liked- Paris, Eden, and a couple more in my greenwich directory- are Papuwa crossovers, and the fandom hated them because Dorian wasn't screwing Klaus. Fandom seems to like the 'Dorian has never slept with another man after seeing Klaus' settei, which *I* can't justify from the manga. But then (sigh) Eroica fandom has never been into reading the manga.

Yes, Gaiden's gearing up to an end, alas. I suppose the necessity of having an end as well as a beginning and middle has kept the Gaiden tighter and hence more satisfying than the main series, but I'll be very sad when it goes.

I was told there's a segment of fandom that believes in Dorian-as-a-virgin. >.> After I managed to control my laughter, I promised myself to never ever read such a thing even if I stumbled across it.

I did find your story "Towards the Alaskan Frontier" which I really liked. I think Klaus might be one of the harder characters to get into his head and I loved all the conflict you had going on inside him. Plus all the UST and Klaus's standoffishness (for lack of a better word) are what I really like about the Dorian/Klaus dynamic and you managed to keep that even in the end.

And here I am doing the exact opposite of what's said above about feedback and probably just lumped myself into the 90% of Eroica fandom that doesn't understand. ;) I'll have to dig up some Papuwa summaries so I can go read the crossovers.

Klaus was an inch short of impossible to write. Not because I can't get into his head, since I can, no problem; but because the canon character I knew would *not* have sex with Dorian under any circumstances while the entire fandom was insisting he would. In one draft of that story he actually shot himself rather than give in, and I never believed the version I wrote for a minute.

probably just lumped myself into the 90% of Eroica fandom that doesn't understand.

Not by a very long shot. Those were the people who said Why didn't they just write notes to each other?

You don't have to know Papuwa to read the Dorian stories. I wrote Servis as a quasi-OC, partly as a joke to see if my friends would get who it was without being told.

The feedback/story discussion issue puzzles me because I went to see what the hoopla was about and didn't see where they were ripping into the author like at fanfic_hate, just talking about whether the story worked for them. Which... well. Is them, not me.

Your insects are scary. But ooh, have fun with the theoretical bed rest. =) I'd like to see the look on the face of the next person who rents your Teletubbies tape.

See, the store has it on DVD as well, so I'm sure it'll be ages before the cassette rents again. I just took it because I didn't wnat to wait while the guy got the DVD out.

Bed rest would be fine if I could do it at the computer. As it is, keeping the leg (markedly less angry than yesterday) in an elevated position is umm awkward.

Elevated legs has reminded me. D'you have chattiness installed on that computer, too?

[I spam, therefore I am.]

Yes! Now I do! The new icq looks weird. Going out to fude the cats in a moment though, be back soon.

[spam! spam!]

re mjj's awkward elevations: the parent feels your pain. However, the doctor now tells her to do more exercise. One hopes your leg will recover quickly too. ;)

There's a new version? It hasn't been behaving properly on mine. It disconnects itself. The other problem is the same old, that the italic hotkey in Word keeps triggering it and I dunno how to stop it. so I wind up disabling it entirely to stop the popup madness. :P

[spam spam beautiful spam]

There's always THE FLOOR. <-- repeating self.

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If it's worth saying once, it's worth saying twice

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