flemmings | (no subject)

Ben Aaronovitch is talking about the previous incarnation of ideas that made it into Rivers of London, one of which was a Hogwarts hommage. "You can tell this is a basic TV idea because it's made out of clichés bolted together."

The first [idea] concerns the social worker who arrives to tell James he has to go to school. I made her an authoritative Nigerian woman but because this was a story about magic I wanted to give her an unconventional background. That's when I decided that she was the spirit of a small river in Nigeria who had emigrated to the UK and having found the Thames abandoned by its native spirits had moved into that niche. The parallel to the many immigrant groups who moved into London and took over small businesses, corner shops and food outlets is obvious.

See, this is an idea I've always wanted to see pursued in urban fantasy: immigrant groups bring their deities and nature spirits with them. I mean, if there are kelpies and whatevers in Ottawa because we have the descendants of Irish settlers in Ottawa (or at least North America) what did the Sikhs and Hindus bring to Calgary? (One suspects nothing that would be happy in that climate, but you know. I bet kelpies are miserable in Ottawa as well, not that de Lint ever says so that I recall. 'Cause I sure would be.) I know Nalo Hopkinson's done this, and Laurence Yep in his way, but I'm wondering who else?

All this with a view to having dragons take over the Humber and the Don, you understand. 'A river with no dragon in it? Ridiculous!' Which then raises the question of why the native spirit of the Humber and the Don left. The Thames we know-- "But since of late, Elizabeth, And later, James came in"-- or maybe just pollution. Would the same be true of a minor Canadian river?

(There's a certain resonance with Spirited Away-- dispossessed river spirits just move somewhere else. Though I suppose the whole point is that a Japanese river spirit wouldn't.)

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Wriiiiiiiiiite it.

On that note, and this seems like something you'd know -- I'm under the vague impression that someone has done the "cities are sentient"/London gains sentience trope in a novel, and ... I'm looking for this novel. Am I hallucinating its existence, and if not, can you point me to it? XD

"cities are sentient"/London gains sentience

Oh. Damn. Very loud bells are ringing but no, I can't place that one. I know I haven't read it because for sure I would remember it. There's elements of it in Aaronovitch, and *possibly* in Griffin but beyond that I can't say. Maybe

incandescens would know?

Enjoy Rivers, and its sequels. They're a lot of fun.

You might be thinking of Diana Wynne Jones' The Merlin Conspiracy? It's not a major element, but the cities are definitely sentient and a couple are characters.

I'm afraid I'm not sure. As with

flemmings, the idea of sentient cities/London is ringing bells, but I honestly cannot point at a single novel and say "it's that one". Sorry. (I think the trope has been done in comics and in roleplaying games too, but...)

There is a river that runs through Leeds, the Aire. I cross it every day on the way to work. I'm sure that there should be an associated spirit, but I'm not sure what.

If it is a dragon, then he (or she?) would definitely have to be involved in the cloth manufacturing industry somehow. Certainly previously, if not necessarily currently. (Or maybe he was, but moved out when the industry and the mills ran down...)

In my perpetual WIPs folder, I have a long, meandering thing about a small wyrm who accidentally migrates to North America along with one of Eric the Red's crew (or folks who came after - need to check L'Anse Aux Meadows info). Being the only wyrm of her kind here, she makes her way across the country (from sea to sea to sea) meeting native/local/immigrant "dragons" in their various homes.

And of course there's Mishepishu (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underwater_panther), who is different kind of water spirit. :)

Edited 2012-06-13 12:50 (UTC)

One sort of expects spirits to move out when the cloth mfg industry moved in, from a sort of knee-jerk reflex that assumes industry and nature are at odds with each other. Which they have been, famously, but it's not an automatic given.

That would be fascinating. I hope it gets written. And the links are fascinating too. Bodies of water and serpenty things clearly go together in many people's minds. Including the ambivalent nature of same.

So much for *my* memory. I reread that just last year. Must reread again. Thanks.

I suppose that if one (a spirit or dragon) did stay around, the options could include:

a) exercise hidden influence on cloth industry and use of water to keep it hygienic, non-polluting, according to the mandate of Heaven, etc.

b) go complete clotheshorse and industry-enthusiastic, neglecting other duties in order to increase his sphere of influence and the town's power.

c) huddle at bottom of river and complain a lot and request frequent rainstorms.

Ah well, maybe it's the kind of things that one expects SOMEONE has written a novel around, but it hasn't happened. Yet. Well I'm sure Mieville will get around to it one day, he's skirted close to it enough times.

I started Rivers, it's pretty fucking awesome. I do intend to pick up A Madness of Angels after this, too. :D

Well, there's American Gods, which is basically built on this idea. I have mixed feelings about much of Gaiman's work - not that it's not good, but that it's never quite as much as it could be - but not this. ♥ Multi-pantheon wossnames. Even bits that are arguably faults, like the weird pacing, add to the overall effect IMO; a strange, vast, affectless psychic space.

As rush says below, there's The Merlin Conspiracy. That has personified cities-- cities as people-- rather than sentient cities-- buildings with awareness. Griffon's London has a kind of sentience in places you don't expect but I'm not sure that the unified cohesive London does. And bladderwrack says American Gods, which I haven't read. I would, except that I assume it's about American cities, which aren't cities as I know them, she harrumphs. ETA- err no, scratch that last. She was responding to my entry, not yours. Lack of caffeine is a terrible thing.

Edited 2012-06-17 14:58 (UTC)

(Agree with you on the not quite what it could be-ness of Gaiman.)

I'd heard of that American Gods. It sounded like Gaiman playing with other people's cultures and I didn't know how good a job he'd done. I mean ideally, by me, whoever writes the Chinese or Indian equivalent of pixies and nixies in Central Park ought to be Chinese or Indian, because borrowed folklore rarely feels right. This is why Hopkinson's Brown Girl in the Ring worked for me, and Pratchett's Witches Abroad not so much.

Yeah, I do have American Gods, haven't read it yet. I too have reservations about it but we'll see how it comes out.

I am kind of like haha let's have a sentient [non-Western city] but I don't really know how it would turn out ...

like Akiko Hatsu's spirits too, no? But they travel by possessing things, and next thing you know a Chinese dragon spirit has appeared in a well in london, because all water sources are connected.

The stories I recall do indeed require the thing to be brought to foreign shores. Is there one about a dragon in a well? That line about all water sources connecting rings bells but I thought I'd read it in English.

akiko hatsu has that single volume tankouban called china house - the reporter ends up marrying a spirit, and the next day her father, who's a river dragon, shows up through the well in the backyard. something like that. you really should develope this idea -- it sounds brillant!

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and as i start my urban fantasy binge (Rivers of London is in my hands RIGHT NOW)

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