Confluences

[flemmings]

As daegaer talks of Japanese pronouns and jttr posts scans of the new Gaiden....

OMFG will you *look* at how Goujun says 'you' to Konzen? Kiden. Written with the kanji for 'honourable' and 'lord, palace.' OK, OK, Goujun is punctilious indeed.

(To be borne in mind: army Goujun doesn't 'know' bureaucracy Konzen in any formal sense, hence polite usage, especially as he's trying to reason with the man. The J/J says 'male form of address to someone of equal (or lower) rank, used in letters' (J: now) 'meaning you (anata)'. Yet another of those polite circumlocutions that for once didn't descend into the gutter. Also FWIW he calls Kenren kimi at first meeting. Wish I could find my later eps to see what he says -if anything- after being taken hostage.)

And oh for a J/J dictionary that gives you earliest usages, as the OED does.

Comments

[incandescens]

Mmmmmmmmm.

(I was rewatching the Michael York/Charlton Heston/Oliver Reed/etc Three Musketeers a few days ago, and oh, the pleasure of the language.)

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Yes indeed. One reason I'm so irrationally fond of Lawrence of Arabia. I should rent the Three Musketeers some time. I think it's been a good quarter cenmtury since I saw it.

[incandescens]

It's enjoyable -- that and the sequel, too. So many good moments. (Though I will never forgive them for adding an expository line for Athos.)

(It's when Milady's being dragged away for execution, and d'Artagnan takes a step to follow and stop it, and Athos says, "One more step, d'Artagnan, and we cross swords. And this time I won't hold back." The first line is from the book. The second isn't. The second is _unnecessary_. I loathe it.)

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

Ugh. Flat-footed indeed.

[incandescens]

Exactly. Obtrusive, jarring, and breaks the mood.

[luxetumbra.livejournal.com]

Wish I could find my later eps to see what he says -if anything- after being taken hostage.

Is this (http://s40.yousendit.com/d.aspx?id=3BNC5CWHK3Q5K37YIJOEZLAUKN) it? Only have one chapter - don't know if there's more.

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

You are invaluable as ever. That is indeed it, and there's Goujun calling them kisama-ra collectively, as one might expect given that he's talking to two of his men with whom he's inordinately displeased. And yatsu-ra when thinking about them, but that one might expect at the best of times if Kenren's in the mix. Thank you.

[luxetumbra.livejournal.com]

Am getting a good education here in Ocean Dragon keigo, so the thanks are all mine. ^_^;;

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

That's not keigo he uses, though. Not even polite neutral. He and Konzen speak an informal da-tai to each other (uhh, da instead of desu and certainly not keigo's de gozaimasu, iku instead of ikimasu and definitely not irasshaimasu) which is interesting given that they don't know each other. Something about the commander of an army and a Bousatsu's nephew tacitly assuming they're same level, maybe, and maybe with a nuance of being in the same boat? Same for kiden, I guess, not that I've ever seen it used before. Equal or lower rank. Keigo is all about acknowledging superior rank.

...though I can never remember if de gozaimasu is respect language (sonkeigo) or simply refined language (teineigo: all those 'o's tacked on to nouns aren't keigo, they're refinements descended from Court lady language.)

[luxetumbra.livejournal.com]

Ah ha. I assumed that the "Honorable Lord" also came parceled with polite verbs but obviously a leap too far. IGNORANCE STRIKES AGAIN! *clutches head*

[flemmings.livejournal.com]

There may be something in that: otherwise he could have used anata. But I think he's trying to convince Konzen of the folly of all this, assuming him to be the most rational of the three and presumably totally out of his depth. Goujun very nearly calls him a hothouse flower- he *does* say 'you were raised in a greenhouse'- and I think assumes that Konzen must be appalled by the circumstances he's found himself in and is looking for a way out. 'Someone of your rank could have gained a promise from Them' presumably to spare his life, possibly to spare Gokuu's. Under the circumstances he's going to speak more politely than the kisamara he uses at Kenren and Tenpou when trying to reason with them.

However I still think he uses a formal but not elevating pronoun partly because he doesn't know Konzen and wants to establish that he regards him in a neutral and not unfriendly fashion. Of course he eventually yobisutes him- calls him simply Konzen!!- when Gokuu attacks. But under the circumstances that makes sense.