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See what happens when you complain? The universe gives you broadband back again. Well, for a while. I think it's about to cut out again.
I'm stuck on a character point. Normally I can think myself into most people's heads, but one particular type defeats me. They're the anti-ukes, using Whatserface's definition: the ones without vulnerabilities. No doubts, no hesitations, no insecurities, and almost by definition no empathy or ability to see how the world looks to other people. I call them dweebs for short because that's certainly how they appear in real life, but I'm not sure they're always dweebs. Certainly they aren't dweebs in their own eyes, and to write a character I have to see how the world looks to him, even if he isn't the protagonist of the story.
Fact is I did write a character like that, not once but many times, in all my Eroica fic. But Dorian feels different to me. For one, in my stories at least he's a rather benign presence; and for another, my ironic narrator could present Dorian's viewpoint straight while simultaneously indicating just where and how Dorian was so charmingly deluded. Besides, Dorian has his own sense of the ironic, which in a pinch can pass for a sense of proportion. But when the character is without humour, *and* completely sure of himself, I don't know what to do. And to make matters worse, I have not one but two of these in the latest story.
Goukou's son Kaiei is fine when seen at a distance through other people's eyes- quiet, modest, authoritative, and efficient. Up close he looks perilously cold-blooded. And the Duke's heir, Shinran, is simply bumptious, a dweeb indeed. Son of a big noise and thinking his father is as big a noise as the second of the ocean kings so no need for too much reticence in the palace. But is that the way self-confident but unimaginative people behave? especially in societies where putting yourself forward is *not* a virtue? I wish I had someone to model him on, she says fretfully, but writers always prefer the introverts and the socially lame, being almost entirely introverted and socially lame themselves. Has anyone ever done an extroverted character with a good estimation of himself and no doubts whatsoever, and made him likable?
I'm stuck on a character point. Normally I can think myself into most people's heads, but one particular type defeats me. They're the anti-ukes, using Whatserface's definition: the ones without vulnerabilities. No doubts, no hesitations, no insecurities, and almost by definition no empathy or ability to see how the world looks to other people. I call them dweebs for short because that's certainly how they appear in real life, but I'm not sure they're always dweebs. Certainly they aren't dweebs in their own eyes, and to write a character I have to see how the world looks to him, even if he isn't the protagonist of the story.
Fact is I did write a character like that, not once but many times, in all my Eroica fic. But Dorian feels different to me. For one, in my stories at least he's a rather benign presence; and for another, my ironic narrator could present Dorian's viewpoint straight while simultaneously indicating just where and how Dorian was so charmingly deluded. Besides, Dorian has his own sense of the ironic, which in a pinch can pass for a sense of proportion. But when the character is without humour, *and* completely sure of himself, I don't know what to do. And to make matters worse, I have not one but two of these in the latest story.
Goukou's son Kaiei is fine when seen at a distance through other people's eyes- quiet, modest, authoritative, and efficient. Up close he looks perilously cold-blooded. And the Duke's heir, Shinran, is simply bumptious, a dweeb indeed. Son of a big noise and thinking his father is as big a noise as the second of the ocean kings so no need for too much reticence in the palace. But is that the way self-confident but unimaginative people behave? especially in societies where putting yourself forward is *not* a virtue? I wish I had someone to model him on, she says fretfully, but writers always prefer the introverts and the socially lame, being almost entirely introverted and socially lame themselves. Has anyone ever done an extroverted character with a good estimation of himself and no doubts whatsoever, and made him likable?
Even Superman had a weakness, and one that was besides Krypotnite
...Has anyone ever done an extroverted character with a good estimation of himself and no doubts whatsoever, and made him likable?
What about giving him something so he's likeable? (What character is without vulnerabilities?) I guess Nii would be an example of someone who pushes forward without hesitation, and didn't appear to have any vulnerabilities until we read his flashback story. He's likeable in that sense that he looks sexy and people, for some reason, are drawn to assholes.
Kubota is also that cool, invicible character for vol. 1, but his depth came from the fact that he came from an environment that didn't recognize him, and then he formed himself into something cool and unfeeling, although this was broken through when Komiya died. Then the depth switches to the transformation of unfeeling-Kubota of vol. 1 to what he becomes in the later volumes.
Asami from Yamane's Finder series is like...a Super-Seme character, and he seems more reticent than extroverted, but then he's the head of his organization though, so that takes leadership skills (or the writer just "skipping" over that part of his development.) His character though is basically always in control, except for that first encounter with Takaba when Takaba gets away which raises Asami's interest in him. Asami is likeable because he is a) sexy and b) handles himself well, but also c) his desire to control Takaba means that he will also try to help Takaba- saving his life, etc.
For Kaiei and Shinran, do they have weaknesses? What get's them up in the morning? Living for duty alone shows a need to please or thoughts that there is no choice in the matter. Are there any regrets because of that?
What bumptious people I keep as friends are friends (and likeable) because insecurities and sweetness still slip out, often beyond their "control" or from what they wish to appear.
Maybe this talk is of no help at all though, so my apologies if bothering. ;;;slips back into cave;;;
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Actually, I did just think of someone bumptious and extroverted with a very good opinion of himself, and that's Porthos from Dumas. But Porthos had certain character traits which kept him within bounds; a knowledge of where he stood in society and that there _were_ people above him, an appreciation of his friends' opinion and a willingness to accept that he was wrong, and, well, there are simply some things he would never have _considered_ doing.
Re: Even Superman had a weakness, and one that was besides Krypotnite
I don't know that Kaiei has any weaknesses I can think of. He just knows how people operate and acts to create the maximum amount of harmony, which close-to looks like manipulation: though an oldest son has good reasons to want everyone to be docile and happy, since he catches it if they're not. Would he even register that he lacks choice in the matter? since it's a given of society that everyone lacks choice about what their rank requires of them.
Shinran exercises his brotherly duties through brilliance and charm- everyone does what Wonderful Golden Nii-san wants. As far as he can see, he's perfectly free- he's always done what he wants and everyone loves him for it.
(Talking to you is always a help- it lets me think out loud. I'd probably have sent you an email about this instead, except that authorial talking to oneself is often a bore to everyone but the author.)
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Generosity is indeed a good balancer though-- if it's true generosity and not just another demonstration of the glorious Me. Porthos is a useful example, in that he was also a generous and large character; but he was also aware of other people as other people, not merely as an audience to his exploits. Maybe I'm making Shinran seem more narcissistic than I think he is, but I'm not convinced his arrogance is just the result of overweening youthfulness. I think he'll grow into one of those types I can't understand, for whom other people are... kitchen appliances, there to serve his needs, and who'll be genuinely offended if they don't. Think of, ohh, the rich, bond traders, Roth and Bellow's characters, and so on.
no subject
I've seen it coupled with a certain degree of innocence, in those cases. The person involved really doesn't realise that they are being bumptious, and will usually pull back if it's made clear to them. They're just trying to be helpful.
I have known a few people like what you're describing with Shinran, and usually broken the acquaintance with them after realising what they are. It is a mild form of sociopathy, in failing to perceive other people as real. Training in noblesse oblige and responsibilities can at least keep them within bounds and stop them doing deliberate damage to other people, out of habit, but as to neglect, or damaging without realising it...
Re: Even Superman had a weakness, and one that was besides Krypotnite
Kaiei's character in this description reminds me a little of Miki, fromt the yaoi novel, "Soshite koi ga hajimaru". Miki is one of the nice, congenial high school boys, and his deal is that he spends so much of his time putting up a front to keep everyone around him happy- giving them the answer they want to hear, etc. (His girlfriend breaks up with him though because "it was like kissing my brother", i.e. no real interest or passion.) The change in the story is that he stumbles upon a young man, an openly gay law consultant, and through a series of meetings and the fact that the consultant's office is in the same building as his juku, Miki starts coming by, just for tea and a chat. From this point on, it's the first time he starts to build a real relationship, and not just one built on always trying to keep the harmony in the room. Because the consultant listens to him and recognizes how he operates, he starts to let himself be more natural, and thus, more human.
I kinda like Nii, but I like him as a "villain" character, since he appears to have no qualms. Qualmless characters don't normally make good "heroes" because they don't really change or are affected, unless (of course) they gain qualms.
Look at Goushou from when he met Pipang. He walked into Pipang's little cottage feeling very confident, the way a king most likely would feel. But then because Pipang is Pipang, he leaves feeling like he didn't get what he had gone for, and he's unsure of why, which makes it even more frustrating for him. (Maybe I'm remembering things wrong, but he is an example of a man/dragon, raised to be king, but facing something that won't come to his call just because he is a king.)
Sometimes it takes someone else to show us our weaknesses, because we would never have seen it (or never allowed ourselves to see it) otherwise. But others are uncontrollable, and thus, something both scary and wondrous. So maybe...What could possibly be scary and wondrous for Kaiei and Shinran?
Re: Even Superman had a weakness, and one that was besides Krypotnite
Shinran I'm tempted to say is too stupid to find anything scary or wondrous. But I'm not being fair to him either. If I want him to be more than a mere Device I have to let him have his own, possibly sympathetic, character. Comes the question, why *don't* I want him to have his own possibly sympathetic character? Just because Goushou doesn't like him and I'm sympathetic to Goushou?
(Goushou is no help as an example. Goushou to me is a pile of insecurities and foibles and angsty tics, and I'm only glad that other people are able to see him as a king on occasion because to me he gets perilously close to a
n authorial insertcoded female.)no subject
Which gives us Bleys on the snot side and 'poor clumsy Shinran who only wants to be liked' on the sympathetic side. Somewhere in between there must be a golden boy who thinks well of himself but needs, definitely, to be put in his place, and in some way that doesn't breed life-long urami. (Though these Asian folktale heroes take much better to being put in their places than we would- probably because Place itself has a meaning and value in their society.)
no subject
Children learn to see the world in shades of grey. Then they become teenagers and everything seems to revert to black and white for several years.